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Win(e)d Down Wednesday Podcast with Jeffery Tobias Halter and Amanda Hammett

Brad Johnson and David Smith: how and why men should mentor women

Hazy IPAs set the backdrop for a frank Win(e)d Down Wednesday conversation about workplace gender disparities and why framing it as a women’s issue gives men a pass on being part of the conversation. After learning that women don’t get the same access to mentoring and sponsorship opportunities, Brad Johnson and David Smith set out to better understand what it takes to become an excellent mentor to women. Their book, “Athena Rising,” outlines their findings. Pour yourself a cold one and listen to their mentoring dos and don’ts along with tips on finding a mentor.

For more information: www.workplaceallies.com

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Disclaimer: This transcript was created using YouTube’s translator tool and that may mean that some of the words, grammar, and typos come from a misinterpretation of the video.

The Transcript - Interview with Brad Johnson and David Smith

Amanda Hammett: Well, good afternoon. Today we are talking to Michelle Travis about engaging male allies for gender equality, and why slash how dads daughters can be workplace gender equity advocates. So today, before we get into that, I am Amanda Hammett. And today I'm, I need to rehydrate a little bit, so I'm going to stick with water. Um, but Jeffrey, my favorite co-host in the world. What are you drinking?

Jeffery Tobias Halter: Thank you. Thank you. And you know, I tried this in April and I'm bringing it back. For repeat performance for our listeners. It's an amazing Rosé. It's called Black Girl Magic. It's by the McBride sisters who are two amazing African-American women working in Napa Valley and bringing forth the whole portfolio of wine. So why I raised this because are our guests is. Very near Napa Valley up in the bay area. And it's my honor and privilege to introduce my friend, Michelle Travis. Michelle is a professor at the University of San Francisco, School of Law where she co-directs USF work law and justice program. Michelle is an expert on employment, discrimination law, and work family integration policies. And she previously has advised many companies as an employment law practitioner. Michelle is the founding member of the work and family researchers network and a board member of the non-for-profit fathering together. Her book, her fairly new book "Dads for Daughters" is a guide for engaging male allies. For gender equity. I think you can see why we're so excited to have her here. She's also the author of award-winning children's book. "My Mom Has Two Jobs" which celebrates working moms.

Amanda Hammett: Well, Michelle, welcome to Win(e)d Down Wednesday. So we're going to dive into a lot today, but before we do, we have to know what are you drinking.

Michelle Travis: Thank you. It is so wonderful to be here. Jeffery and Amanda. Um, so I have recently kicked a diet soda habit and replaced it with flavored sparkling water. So today I am sipping my favorite flavor, which is Cran•Raspberry. Um, it feels very indulgent, but it is not, which is why I love it. Love it.

Jeffery Tobias Halter: Michelle. It's been a while since we've talked. Um, we spoke when you were writing your book "Dads for Daughters", please share your background with our listeners and share how you as an employment lawyer who studies women's workplace advancement came to research the connection between the father daughter, relationship and gender equity leadership.

Michelle Travis: Well, thank you, Jeffery. It does feel like returning full circle to be here, to talk with you again. Um, Jeffery was one of the very first dads of daughters, um, who I interviewed for the book, um, and Jeffery, our conversation way back then really did a lot to inspire me to continue down this research path. So thank you. I don't know if you remember, but when we first talked, um, it was at a time. In my legal advocacy career, when I was feeling really frustrated with recognizing the limitations of law and policy as tools for advancing gender equity. Um, I had spent of course, many years focused on advocating for things like paid family leave and flex time and workplace flexibility. Um, all of which I think are absolutely necessary for gender equity in the workplace, but I was Increasingly feeling like they would never be sufficient on their own to really create truly inclusive workplaces. So I would say I was also frankly, very tired of talking to rooms full of mostly women and mostly lawyers. Uh, so I was looking for ways. To invite more men into conversations about gender equity at work, particularly male workplace leaders. And, and of course we know that that's about meeting men where they're at and finding common commitments. And, um, I knew that parenthood is certainly something that connects many of us in very powerful ways. And, and that's when I discovered, um, research, finding that.

When men have a daughter, particularly a firstborn daughter, they tend to become less supportive of traditional gender roles. And they tend to become more supportive of employment discrimination, laws, and equal pay policies and sexual harassment enforcement. And I thought, well, that is. Um, and entry way, right? That's an entry way for engagement.

Um, and then I got even more excited when I started discovering that those shifts, those tendencies were actually having real world effects. So research has found, for example, that companies with CEOs who are dads of daughters have smaller gender pay gaps.
In their companies, then those run by other men, um, venture capital firms with senior partners who are dads of daughters, tend to be more likely to hire women into their partnership ranks than other venture capital firms. And those women tend to invest
More in women run companies, right? So these are real gender equity impacts.

Um, and so it was about the same time that I was discovering this research that, um, my personal life started converging with my professional life. And I started seeing the impact that my own two daughters. We're having on my husband and he is the chair of a national law firm. Um, and of course, right, me as a professor who researches gender equity, I had had his ear long before we had kids about the importance of women's leadership advancement and, um, gender balance in his leadership teams. And of course he had always, um, even before we had kids. Um, agreed with and cared about those goals. Right. But I don't think that he had really fully internalized kind of his personal responsibility, um, and his personal power to actually make a difference. In, in what he correctly realized was a very daunting challenge.

Um, but when we had two daughters, it was like his intellectual agreements with the goal of advancing gender equity at work, um, turned into this urgency to act. Um, it was like, he decided gender equity is tough, but it must be doable. It must be done now. Um, I personally can and should, um, make a difference about this as he was kind of envisioning the working world that he wanted his daughters to grow up and be able to enter into. So it was really that personal experience, um, together with my research, um, that got me really.

To become convinced that the father daughter relationship is, is one powerful entryway for engaging male allies in gender equity. And that's when I started interviewing dads with daughters. And when I met you Jeffery, um, and that's how the dads for daughters book really got launched. And the goal is really to share father's stories with other fathers to really get men engaging other men in gender equity work.

Amanda Hammett: Michelle, Of course, all men have a stake in a more gender equitable workplace, and frankly, anyone can become an ally, but what are some things that make dads and daughters particularly well-positioned become gender equity leaders in their work places?

Michelle Travis: Yeah, so Amanda, this is a really great question and you are absolutely correct. Right? All men, we all have a stake in a more gender equitable workplace.
And of course we all know that's in part because, um, gender equitable workplaces benefit us all. They are more successful financially. They are more innovative. They are more responsive to a diverse customer base. So yes, we all have a stake in it. And we also know that many men are powerful gender equity advocate. Without having a daughter and we know that some men with the daughter are not. Um, so, um, I really view the father daughter relationship as, um, one of many different effective ways to engage men as gender equity advocates. Um, that being said, though, um, there are some particular reasons why dads with daughters are often well positioned, um, motivated and skilled to become leaders in gender equity, advocacy at work. So one of the reasons is because the father daughter relationship, um, has been found to be a great way for dads to build empathy for other girls and women. Right. And we know. That empathy is a workplace leadership skill, right? Men report that they often learn a lot by seeing their own daughters experienced gender discrimination and bias experience, exclusion experience, feeling pressures around expectations of roles and activities and career paths. Um, and then also report learning a lot from seeing their older daughters, their adult daughters, um, struggling with their own work family integration challenges, right where their own daughters are finding child care, impacting their, um, career advancement. And, and that in particular gets a lot of men to start focusing more on institutional barriers to gender equity at work. Right. Because they can see from their own daughter's experience that. If there's challenging is advancing into leadership, it is not because of a lack of interest or lack of skill or lack of commitment, all of which their daughters have, right? Maybe it is due to a lack of robust family leave policies, for example. Um, so dads are bringing those insights back into their own workplaces, um, and becoming really powerful advocates for institutional change. Um, and I would say the second reason that dads of daughters. Can be particularly well positioned to become leaders for gender equity in the workplace is something that social scientists referred to as standing to speak. Um, so what researchers have found is that when someone advocates for a position that might appear to others, like it is at odds with the advocate's own self interest.

Um, so like a man advocating for women's advancement, right. That might appear to others, although not correctly, but appear to be at odds with their interests. Researchers have found that people often react to those kinds of advocates with surprise, but also with some anger and resentment, like, it's the sense of who are you to be speaking on this particular issue? Right. And so that of course causes them not to actually listened to.

And engage with the substantive message that the advocate is bringing. So what researchers have found, however, is that those reactions tend to, um, decrease, tend to go away.

If an advocates identifies. A personal stake in the, in the issue, right then listeners can say, oh, I see where you're coming from. Um, which importantly allows them to listen to the message right here, engage substantively. Right. So for men, what this means is that, um, if you invoke your dad of a daughter status, right? I'm the dad of a daughter. That's why I care about gender equity. Um, they are granted what research called standing to speak on issues of gender equity at work. Right. Other people can say, oh, I understand why you are interested in this. I will listen to your message. And so this makes dads of daughters often particularly effective at engaging others, particularly other men in conversations around gender equity. Now I will say Amanda, one really important caveat here is That this method is of course going to backfire if it is done just as part of a performative allyship.

Right. Um, we know, we all know I'm famous politicians, celebrities, others, right. Um, who have invoked their dad of a daughter status to, um, really mask a lack of commitment to gender equity or worst To cover their own sexist behavior. Right. And they've rightfully gotten called out for that. Right. So, um, I want to highlight that, but also know that those instances I do not think should, should deter other dads of daughters who, um, for whom their relationship with their daughter really is an authentic source of interest and learning and commitment to advancing gender equity. I mean, when I see a father coming to me saying, um, I am interested in learning about gender equity at work and what I can do, um, because I have a daughter, um, if that is authentic, you know, my response is never.

Um, why did it take you so long? Why did you need a daughter to figure out the gender equity is important? Right? My response is welcome to the conversation. Thank you for your allyship. Um, let's join forces, let's get to work. We found a connection.

Jeffery Tobias Halter: You know, it's so funny and I, and I love all of those data points. Cause I have to tell you, you know, in the work that I do, I'm often approached by women with this, you know, they hear dad's for daughter or the father of daughter initiative and their immediate reaction is. This is some paternalistic pat women on the head, you know, go along with it. And, and, you know, I have just found doing this work. You've gotta be kind of almost very sensitive to say, you know to speak in first person. This is why I'm doing it. Also being very inclusive from an intersectional standpoint, to say it, you don't have to have a daughter. To model these skills. there may be a female coworker. Maybe you had a working mother, um, or your significant other. So, um, so some great advice there and, and really building on that. Uh, and you've touched on some of these things, but as we wrap up, what are some specific actions that allies can take in their professional lives to create more gender equitable workplaces? And as we wrap, I want you to think about. One message you have for all the fathers. So we're going to be listening to this around father's day. And what would be your one call out action?

Michelle Travis: Absolutely. I think you're so right. Jeffery, there's this risk that when you are motivated by the fact that you're a parent. But you want to make sure that you're not playing your parent role in your workplace where, where you are actually becoming a gender equity advocate, right. One is a motivation, but another is, we have to think about what is effective allyship. How do we do that? Right. So transitioning into that, right.

Once we figured out why we want to be a gender equity advocate, how do we actually do that?

Well, I actually think, um, the very first step to really. Um, shift from being an ally to an advocate, right. Someone who wants to actually take action, um, is to, um, publicly commit to action. Right? And even if you're not quite sure what that action is going to be yet, um, but publicly commit to it in a way that's going to make you feel accountable, but also that's going to signal to others. Let others know that you are someone they can trust to be someone who will listen, who will learn. Um, and that relationship building will lead you to action, right? You will figure out what they need, what the people you're trying to be, allies for, need you to do what that action will be. So to take that very first step, that initial step kind of publicly committing to action. Um, I have two suggestions of ways to do that. Um, one is to join the, this working dad cares campaign. Um, this campaign was created by the non-profit. Fathering together, um, of which I sit on the board. If you go to fathering together's website, you can download a sign that says, #thisworkingdadcares You can print it out, put your name on it. Um, hold it out. Take a photo of yourself, posted on your social media accounts. Um, with a statement about why as a dad. As a dad, you are committed to advancing gender equity at work, right? To demonstrate you understand the connection between those two, right? And then the second way that you might take this first step, this initial kind of public commitment step is to take the father of a daughter pledge, Jeffery, your pledge. I come back to it again and again, it's on. Jeffery why women website, it's highlighted in my dads for daughters book. It's something that connected us.

I still give it to all of my male friends and colleagues. Um, and I think it's a great first step because it's something that you can sign print put on your office wall and it invites others to invite you to action. Right? And, and the pledge is really simple, but very profound, right? It says as the father of a daughter, I will listen, learn lead and have the will to advocate for the recruitment, advancement, retention, and equitable treatment of women in the workplace. I am making this commitment and support of my daughters. Right. Um, so once you've done that, right, that public commitment, you've invited others. You've signaled. I am an ally then. Right. You can start taking action. Um, and others will help you along the way and invite you to partner towards action. So lots of things you can do, but given our time, I want to just highlight one really specific action item that I think dads can do in particular, if you're thinking about what can I do as father's day comes?
The one that I think is sort of top of priority list right now is to find ways to support work, family integration, policies, and practices at your workplace. Um, you know, since the pandemic began, we, um, have seen work family integration, challenges more visibly in ways than we ever have before surveys are now finding. That for the first time a majority of fathers are agreeing with the statement that remote work gives moms more professional opportunities, right? Which means that more fathers than ever are actually seeing the link between workplace flexibility. And workplace gender equity. Right. But what we've seen as dads often sit these conversations out conversations around workplace flexibility, even though an increasing number of dads won't work like this, whether they sit the conversations out, they can, if it's not their conversation to have. Um, and so I would say, know that stepping into conversations to encourage your workplace, to be become committed, remain committed to workplace flexibility in all of its forms, especially now as we're trying to.

So many of us are trying to imagine what is the post pandemic workplace? Going to look like, um, your voices as dads and workplace flexibility conversations are so powerful, so critical step in, lean into that discussion. Um, and that also includes dads using workplace flexibility, policies, and practices that are available in your workplace. Right. That modeling behavior. Um, we know how important this is when dads take family leave. For example, they have stronger bonds with their kids, stronger partnerships with their own partners. It decreases maternal depression, it increases co-equal caregiving and it levels the playing field for women at work. Right. We know this. It destigmatizes family leave, um, by supporting more places built by and for parents. Um, and it directly supports your own partner. If you have one, um, mother's income rises 7% for each month that a father takes family leave for a newborn child pay. Um, so supporting workplace flexibility, um, when others are using it and to use it yourself, I would say that is one of the top ways that you can, um, become. Not just an ally, but an action oriented advocate. So Jeffery, and answer to your last question. If I was going to leave fathers with one piece of advice, um, as we think about father's day and as a father, how you might, um, be motivated by your parenting roles to become a gender equity advocate. My one piece of advice would really be that small actions actually have the big impact when many dads are doing them. Right? So if each dad does one small thing to think about gender equity, the cumulative impact in advancing gender equity is going to be enormous.

Amanda Hammett: Well, Michelle, thank you so much. There was so much packed into there.
I hope that all of you who are listening, followed along with all of the data points, she had some phenomenal things that she shared, but Michelle, thank you. Thank you again for joining us today to talk about the important role of dads of daughters, um, and the role that they have in, in making their professional lives to create a more gender equitable workplace. So I would love to have you back again, because this is just the beginning of the conversation. Uh, so you guys that are listening can find more information about Michelle and her work on her website. michelletravis.net Her books are available at your favorite bookseller, and you can follow her on Twitter @michelleatravis Thank you again for joining us and we will see you in the very next episode.

Disclaimer: This transcript was created using YouTube’s translator tool and that may mean that some of the words, grammar, and typos come from a misinterpretation of the video.

Win(e)d Down Wednesday Podcast with Jeffery Tobias Halter and Amanda Hammett

Michelle Travis: Dads of daughters as allies for gender equality

How do we invite more men into gender equity conversations at work? Michelle Travis suggests using parenthood as an entry point for engagement and allyship. Her research found that when men have daughters, particularly first-born daughters, they tend to become less supportive of traditional gender roles. And they tend to become more supportive of employment discrimination laws, equal pay policies and sexual harassment enforcement. She also found that CEOs who are ‘girl dads’ had real gender equity impacts on their organizations. Don’t miss this opportunity to learn about speaking up and the impact of having a personal stake in an issue.

Resources:
About Michelle Travis: https://michelletravis.net
Fathering Together: https://fatheringtogether.org

Share the LOVE and TWEET about this episode.

Don't miss an episode. Subscribe to Win(e)d Down Wednesday.

Disclaimer: This transcript was created using YouTube’s translator tool and that may mean that some of the words, grammar, and typos come from a misinterpretation of the video.

The Transcript - Interview with Michelle Travis

Amanda Hammett: Well, good afternoon. Today we are talking to Michelle Travis about engaging male allies for gender equality, and why slash how dads daughters can be workplace gender equity advocates. So today, before we get into that, I am Amanda Hammett. And today I'm, I need to rehydrate a little bit, so I'm going to stick with water. Um, but Jeffrey, my favorite co-host in the world. What are you drinking?

Jeffery Tobias Halter: Thank you. Thank you. And you know, I tried this in April and I'm bringing it back. For repeat performance for our listeners. It's an amazing Rosé. It's called Black Girl Magic. It's by the McBride sisters who are two amazing African-American women working in Napa Valley and bringing forth the whole portfolio of wine. So why I raised this because are our guests is. Very near Napa Valley up in the bay area. And it's my honor and privilege to introduce my friend, Michelle Travis. Michelle is a professor at the University of San Francisco, School of Law where she co-directs USF work law and justice program. Michelle is an expert on employment, discrimination law, and work family integration policies. And she previously has advised many companies as an employment law practitioner. Michelle is the founding member of the work and family researchers network and a board member of the non-for-profit fathering together. Her book, her fairly new book "Dads for Daughters" is a guide for engaging male allies. For gender equity. I think you can see why we're so excited to have her here. She's also the author of award-winning children's book. "My Mom Has Two Jobs" which celebrates working moms.

Amanda Hammett: Well, Michelle, welcome to Win(e)d Down Wednesday. So we're going to dive into a lot today, but before we do, we have to know what are you drinking.

Michelle Travis: Thank you. It is so wonderful to be here. Jeffery and Amanda. Um, so I have recently kicked a diet soda habit and replaced it with flavored sparkling water. So today I am sipping my favorite flavor, which is Cran•Raspberry. Um, it feels very indulgent, but it is not, which is why I love it. Love it.

Jeffery Tobias Halter: Michelle. It's been a while since we've talked. Um, we spoke when you were writing your book "Dads for Daughters", please share your background with our listeners and share how you as an employment lawyer who studies women's workplace advancement came to research the connection between the father daughter, relationship and gender equity leadership.

Michelle Travis: Well, thank you, Jeffery. It does feel like returning full circle to be here, to talk with you again. Um, Jeffery was one of the very first dads of daughters, um, who I interviewed for the book, um, and Jeffery, our conversation way back then really did a lot to inspire me to continue down this research path. So thank you. I don't know if you remember, but when we first talked, um, it was at a time. In my legal advocacy career, when I was feeling really frustrated with recognizing the limitations of law and policy as tools for advancing gender equity. Um, I had spent of course, many years focused on advocating for things like paid family leave and flex time and workplace flexibility. Um, all of which I think are absolutely necessary for gender equity in the workplace, but I was Increasingly feeling like they would never be sufficient on their own to really create truly inclusive workplaces. So I would say I was also frankly, very tired of talking to rooms full of mostly women and mostly lawyers. Uh, so I was looking for ways. To invite more men into conversations about gender equity at work, particularly male workplace leaders. And, and of course we know that that's about meeting men where they're at and finding common commitments. And, um, I knew that parenthood is certainly something that connects many of us in very powerful ways. And, and that's when I discovered, um, research, finding that.

When men have a daughter, particularly a firstborn daughter, they tend to become less supportive of traditional gender roles. And they tend to become more supportive of employment discrimination, laws, and equal pay policies and sexual harassment enforcement. And I thought, well, that is. Um, and entry way, right? That's an entry way for engagement.

Um, and then I got even more excited when I started discovering that those shifts, those tendencies were actually having real world effects. So research has found, for example, that companies with CEOs who are dads of daughters have smaller gender pay gaps.
In their companies, then those run by other men, um, venture capital firms with senior partners who are dads of daughters, tend to be more likely to hire women into their partnership ranks than other venture capital firms. And those women tend to invest
More in women run companies, right? So these are real gender equity impacts.

Um, and so it was about the same time that I was discovering this research that, um, my personal life started converging with my professional life. And I started seeing the impact that my own two daughters. We're having on my husband and he is the chair of a national law firm. Um, and of course, right, me as a professor who researches gender equity, I had had his ear long before we had kids about the importance of women's leadership advancement and, um, gender balance in his leadership teams. And of course he had always, um, even before we had kids. Um, agreed with and cared about those goals. Right. But I don't think that he had really fully internalized kind of his personal responsibility, um, and his personal power to actually make a difference. In, in what he correctly realized was a very daunting challenge.

Um, but when we had two daughters, it was like his intellectual agreements with the goal of advancing gender equity at work, um, turned into this urgency to act. Um, it was like, he decided gender equity is tough, but it must be doable. It must be done now. Um, I personally can and should, um, make a difference about this as he was kind of envisioning the working world that he wanted his daughters to grow up and be able to enter into. So it was really that personal experience, um, together with my research, um, that got me really.

To become convinced that the father daughter relationship is, is one powerful entryway for engaging male allies in gender equity. And that's when I started interviewing dads with daughters. And when I met you Jeffery, um, and that's how the dads for daughters book really got launched. And the goal is really to share father's stories with other fathers to really get men engaging other men in gender equity work.

Amanda Hammett: Michelle, Of course, all men have a stake in a more gender equitable workplace, and frankly, anyone can become an ally, but what are some things that make dads and daughters particularly well-positioned become gender equity leaders in their work places?

Michelle Travis: Yeah, so Amanda, this is a really great question and you are absolutely correct. Right? All men, we all have a stake in a more gender equitable workplace.
And of course we all know that's in part because, um, gender equitable workplaces benefit us all. They are more successful financially. They are more innovative. They are more responsive to a diverse customer base. So yes, we all have a stake in it. And we also know that many men are powerful gender equity advocate. Without having a daughter and we know that some men with the daughter are not. Um, so, um, I really view the father daughter relationship as, um, one of many different effective ways to engage men as gender equity advocates. Um, that being said, though, um, there are some particular reasons why dads with daughters are often well positioned, um, motivated and skilled to become leaders in gender equity, advocacy at work. So one of the reasons is because the father daughter relationship, um, has been found to be a great way for dads to build empathy for other girls and women. Right. And we know. That empathy is a workplace leadership skill, right? Men report that they often learn a lot by seeing their own daughters experienced gender discrimination and bias experience, exclusion experience, feeling pressures around expectations of roles and activities and career paths. Um, and then also report learning a lot from seeing their older daughters, their adult daughters, um, struggling with their own work family integration challenges, right where their own daughters are finding child care, impacting their, um, career advancement. And, and that in particular gets a lot of men to start focusing more on institutional barriers to gender equity at work. Right. Because they can see from their own daughter's experience that. If there's challenging is advancing into leadership, it is not because of a lack of interest or lack of skill or lack of commitment, all of which their daughters have, right? Maybe it is due to a lack of robust family leave policies, for example. Um, so dads are bringing those insights back into their own workplaces, um, and becoming really powerful advocates for institutional change. Um, and I would say the second reason that dads of daughters. Can be particularly well positioned to become leaders for gender equity in the workplace is something that social scientists referred to as standing to speak. Um, so what researchers have found is that when someone advocates for a position that might appear to others, like it is at odds with the advocate's own self interest.

Um, so like a man advocating for women's advancement, right. That might appear to others, although not correctly, but appear to be at odds with their interests. Researchers have found that people often react to those kinds of advocates with surprise, but also with some anger and resentment, like, it's the sense of who are you to be speaking on this particular issue? Right. And so that of course causes them not to actually listened to.

And engage with the substantive message that the advocate is bringing. So what researchers have found, however, is that those reactions tend to, um, decrease, tend to go away.

If an advocates identifies. A personal stake in the, in the issue, right then listeners can say, oh, I see where you're coming from. Um, which importantly allows them to listen to the message right here, engage substantively. Right. So for men, what this means is that, um, if you invoke your dad of a daughter status, right? I'm the dad of a daughter. That's why I care about gender equity. Um, they are granted what research called standing to speak on issues of gender equity at work. Right. Other people can say, oh, I understand why you are interested in this. I will listen to your message. And so this makes dads of daughters often particularly effective at engaging others, particularly other men in conversations around gender equity. Now I will say Amanda, one really important caveat here is That this method is of course going to backfire if it is done just as part of a performative allyship.

Right. Um, we know, we all know I'm famous politicians, celebrities, others, right. Um, who have invoked their dad of a daughter status to, um, really mask a lack of commitment to gender equity or worst To cover their own sexist behavior. Right. And they've rightfully gotten called out for that. Right. So, um, I want to highlight that, but also know that those instances I do not think should, should deter other dads of daughters who, um, for whom their relationship with their daughter really is an authentic source of interest and learning and commitment to advancing gender equity. I mean, when I see a father coming to me saying, um, I am interested in learning about gender equity at work and what I can do, um, because I have a daughter, um, if that is authentic, you know, my response is never.

Um, why did it take you so long? Why did you need a daughter to figure out the gender equity is important? Right? My response is welcome to the conversation. Thank you for your allyship. Um, let's join forces, let's get to work. We found a connection.

Jeffery Tobias Halter: You know, it's so funny and I, and I love all of those data points. Cause I have to tell you, you know, in the work that I do, I'm often approached by women with this, you know, they hear dad's for daughter or the father of daughter initiative and their immediate reaction is. This is some paternalistic pat women on the head, you know, go along with it. And, and, you know, I have just found doing this work. You've gotta be kind of almost very sensitive to say, you know to speak in first person. This is why I'm doing it. Also being very inclusive from an intersectional standpoint, to say it, you don't have to have a daughter. To model these skills. there may be a female coworker. Maybe you had a working mother, um, or your significant other. So, um, so some great advice there and, and really building on that. Uh, and you've touched on some of these things, but as we wrap up, what are some specific actions that allies can take in their professional lives to create more gender equitable workplaces? And as we wrap, I want you to think about. One message you have for all the fathers. So we're going to be listening to this around father's day. And what would be your one call out action?

Michelle Travis: Absolutely. I think you're so right. Jeffery, there's this risk that when you are motivated by the fact that you're a parent. But you want to make sure that you're not playing your parent role in your workplace where, where you are actually becoming a gender equity advocate, right. One is a motivation, but another is, we have to think about what is effective allyship. How do we do that? Right. So transitioning into that, right.

Once we figured out why we want to be a gender equity advocate, how do we actually do that?

Well, I actually think, um, the very first step to really. Um, shift from being an ally to an advocate, right. Someone who wants to actually take action, um, is to, um, publicly commit to action. Right? And even if you're not quite sure what that action is going to be yet, um, but publicly commit to it in a way that's going to make you feel accountable, but also that's going to signal to others. Let others know that you are someone they can trust to be someone who will listen, who will learn. Um, and that relationship building will lead you to action, right? You will figure out what they need, what the people you're trying to be, allies for, need you to do what that action will be. So to take that very first step, that initial step kind of publicly committing to action. Um, I have two suggestions of ways to do that. Um, one is to join the, this working dad cares campaign. Um, this campaign was created by the non-profit. Fathering together, um, of which I sit on the board. If you go to fathering together's website, you can download a sign that says, #thisworkingdadcares You can print it out, put your name on it. Um, hold it out. Take a photo of yourself, posted on your social media accounts. Um, with a statement about why as a dad. As a dad, you are committed to advancing gender equity at work, right? To demonstrate you understand the connection between those two, right? And then the second way that you might take this first step, this initial kind of public commitment step is to take the father of a daughter pledge, Jeffery, your pledge. I come back to it again and again, it's on. Jeffery why women website, it's highlighted in my dads for daughters book. It's something that connected us.

I still give it to all of my male friends and colleagues. Um, and I think it's a great first step because it's something that you can sign print put on your office wall and it invites others to invite you to action. Right? And, and the pledge is really simple, but very profound, right? It says as the father of a daughter, I will listen, learn lead and have the will to advocate for the recruitment, advancement, retention, and equitable treatment of women in the workplace. I am making this commitment and support of my daughters. Right. Um, so once you've done that, right, that public commitment, you've invited others. You've signaled. I am an ally then. Right. You can start taking action. Um, and others will help you along the way and invite you to partner towards action. So lots of things you can do, but given our time, I want to just highlight one really specific action item that I think dads can do in particular, if you're thinking about what can I do as father's day comes?
The one that I think is sort of top of priority list right now is to find ways to support work, family integration, policies, and practices at your workplace. Um, you know, since the pandemic began, we, um, have seen work family integration, challenges more visibly in ways than we ever have before surveys are now finding. That for the first time a majority of fathers are agreeing with the statement that remote work gives moms more professional opportunities, right? Which means that more fathers than ever are actually seeing the link between workplace flexibility. And workplace gender equity. Right. But what we've seen as dads often sit these conversations out conversations around workplace flexibility, even though an increasing number of dads won't work like this, whether they sit the conversations out, they can, if it's not their conversation to have. Um, and so I would say, know that stepping into conversations to encourage your workplace, to be become committed, remain committed to workplace flexibility in all of its forms, especially now as we're trying to.

So many of us are trying to imagine what is the post pandemic workplace? Going to look like, um, your voices as dads and workplace flexibility conversations are so powerful, so critical step in, lean into that discussion. Um, and that also includes dads using workplace flexibility, policies, and practices that are available in your workplace. Right. That modeling behavior. Um, we know how important this is when dads take family leave. For example, they have stronger bonds with their kids, stronger partnerships with their own partners. It decreases maternal depression, it increases co-equal caregiving and it levels the playing field for women at work. Right. We know this. It destigmatizes family leave, um, by supporting more places built by and for parents. Um, and it directly supports your own partner. If you have one, um, mother's income rises 7% for each month that a father takes family leave for a newborn child pay. Um, so supporting workplace flexibility, um, when others are using it and to use it yourself, I would say that is one of the top ways that you can, um, become. Not just an ally, but an action oriented advocate. So Jeffery, and answer to your last question. If I was going to leave fathers with one piece of advice, um, as we think about father's day and as a father, how you might, um, be motivated by your parenting roles to become a gender equity advocate. My one piece of advice would really be that small actions actually have the big impact when many dads are doing them. Right? So if each dad does one small thing to think about gender equity, the cumulative impact in advancing gender equity is going to be enormous.

Amanda Hammett: Well, Michelle, thank you so much. There was so much packed into there.
I hope that all of you who are listening, followed along with all of the data points, she had some phenomenal things that she shared, but Michelle, thank you. Thank you again for joining us today to talk about the important role of dads of daughters, um, and the role that they have in, in making their professional lives to create a more gender equitable workplace. So I would love to have you back again, because this is just the beginning of the conversation. Uh, so you guys that are listening can find more information about Michelle and her work on her website. michelletravis.net Her books are available at your favorite bookseller, and you can follow her on Twitter @michelleatravis Thank you again for joining us and we will see you in the very next episode.

Disclaimer: This transcript was created using YouTube’s translator tool and that may mean that some of the words, grammar, and typos come from a misinterpretation of the video.

Win(e)d Down Wednesday Podcast with Jeffery Tobias Halter and Amanda Hammett

Gabrielle Claiborne – Embrace your truth: a journey of authenticity

"What does authentic leadership look like in the workplace? How do we encourage employees to bring their whole selves to work? Authenticity is a journey and is unique to each of us. In her memoir meets self-help book, Gabrielle Claiborne, co-founder of Transformation Journeys Worldwide, shares her insights into what it took for her to embrace her authenticity as a trans woman, and invites readers to embrace new facets of their unique truths—whatever those look like for them. In this dynamic conversation, Gabrielle outlines steps into your ever-evolving authenticity and tips to connect with your purpose. She also details actions that trans allies and advocates can do right now to foster inclusivity and respectful interactions. Listen today for a portal to living a purposeful life."

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The Transcript - Interview with Gabrielle Claiborne

Jeffery Tobias Halter: Well, good afternoon. Today we're talking with Gabrielle Claiborne. It's pride month. We want to explore deeper the previous conversation we had with her. And this time we want to talk about her book, talk about more gender equity to include all women and, and a term that she uses that I'm actually going to ever expand on later in the call. And that's this notion of gender expansive. And what do we mean by that? Um, so it's my pleasure to welcome my co-host Uh, Amanda, uh, first of all, I want to start by saying I'm, I'm enjoying, you know, my beverage of choice, typically a nice dry French Rosé on a hot June day in Atlanta. What about you?

Amanda Hammett: Well, um, you usually refer to it as the ice tea wines

Jeffery Tobias Halter: The ice tea of wines, of course.

Amanda Hammett: So today I am back with my vodka club soda and lime. My traditional summer sugar-free drink, I guess. It makes me feel like I'm healthy.

Amanda Hammett: So, um, it is my absolute honor to welcome back Gabrielle Claiborne, um, back to Win(e)d Down Wednesday. Uh, if you have not seen her previous episode, please go back and check it out. It was phenomenal information for everyone, but we spoke with her recently about pride month and about building inclusive organizations. And today we're going to continue that conversation. So Gabrielle is the co-founder and CEO of Transformation Journeys Worldwide, which is an inclusive training and consulting firm with a transgender and gender expansive focus, her award-winning and certified LGBT business in enterprise consultancy helps cutting edge organization. Position themselves to attract and retain the best talent and foster collaborative working environments, which maximizes innovation and directly impacts the bottom line by creating fully trans inclusive cultures. Now Gabrielle currently serves as the co-chair of the national LGBT chamber of Commerce's TGX initiative as the co-chair of the trans affairs committee of the city on the city of Atlanta's LGBTQ mayoral advisory council as secretary of the out Georgia business Alliance. And, as chair of their TGX 360 workplace and entrepreneurship initiative, man. I mean, I don't know how you have time to sleep with all this that you have going on. In addition to all of this in 2020, she published her memoir, which was memoir meets self-help book. Embrace Your Truth: A Journey of Authenticity Uh, Gabrielle is a sought after speaker activists and thought leader whose work has been featured in Forbes, and the Atlanta business Chronicle,

Jeffery Tobias Halter: Gabrielle, welcome back to Win(e)d Down Wednesday, what's your beverage of choice.

Gabrielle Claiborne: Thank you for having me back. My beverage of choice is typically a Molbak. I love the red wine today because I am heading to the beach in a few days. I'm staying clean and I'm drinking my water.

Amanda Hammett: Oh, I love it. Okay. So Gabrielle for listeners who missed the earlier episode that we briefly touched on, would you share a very short background and description of the work you're doing through Transformation Journeys?

Gabrielle Claiborne: Yes, so we are an inclusion training firm with the transgender focus, so we help a myriad of organization, whether myriad organizations, whether it's a corporate client, whether it's a medical or mental health peer client, whether it's a spiritual community, a municipality and educational institution, we helped them establish cultures of belonging. For trans and gender expansive individuals. And we do this through both personal cultural competency training, and also organizational and targeted cultural competency training. And we've been in business for seven years. And over the, over the last seven years, we have developed a very robust curriculum of, uh, the different services that we offer. And we're very grateful that organizations continue coming back to us to continue the conversation.

Jeffery Tobias Halter: Well, that's great. You know, so our last episode, we focused on some of your corporate work. We're going to be a little more personal in this interview now, and I'd love for you to share with our readers, um, some, uh, insights from your book, Embrace Your Truth: A Journey of Authenticity As you describe it, a memoir, meet self-help book. Tell us more.

Gabrielle Claiborne: Here's my book. Embrace Your Truth: A Journey of Authenticity You can find it on Amazon. And I was very intentional and I'm writing this book because not only did I feel like it was very important for, especially in the times that we're living in for successful trans stories to be shared. because, I feel like a lot of our community for those who are just starting out on their journey, they need good role models to emulate and to look at and say, if this person can do this, then I can do this as well. So I want it to be very intentional in making sure that there was a positive story out there that the community and an ally or an advocate can really tap into. But I also wrote it because when we're on A Journey of Authenticity, Uh, authenticity looks different on us, right? I mean, it just so happens to that. My, uh, aspect of my authenticity is that I'm a transgender woman. So in this book I share the, the lessons learned the insights, spiritual insights. However you want to, whatever phrase you want to use, that we all have that are universal by the way that we all have to navigate and come to terms with. And when we're looking to embrace any aspect of authenticity that is waiting to come forth in our life. And so when I talk about these, these lessons learned that I had to navigate it's things like building a support system around you, because you know, when we're on a journey of authenticity, that journey is not meant to be traveled alone. We have to have a good support system around us to help us continue moving forward, because there's going to be days. And I can tell you this from a firsthand perspective, there's going to be days when you're not going to want to get out of the bed. And so you're going to have to add that support system around you to continue encouraging you and being your cheerleader. You're also going to have to learn to do things like listen to your heart. I didn't even know that my heart spoke with five languages. And so as a result of writing this book and doing the research and living my life. Did I understand that my heart had been calling me all along to embrace this aspect of my truth. I had to learn to love myself all over again. I mean, especially when we embrace certain aspects about the authenticity, that really, that really don't rest well with even our family or those around us, our workplace, right. When we get a lot of pushback, we have to be able to love ourselves enough, to continue leaning into what our heart is trying to tell us and leaning into that still small voice and learning to love myself was a huge learning experience. And one of the most valuable things that I came to term. Learning to navigate then pushback, you know, like I said, there's going to be folks who are going to say, you know, this is impacting me and I'm really not liking what this is doing to me. Right. So, uh, how do you prepare for that? How do you do that in a way that is in integrity with yourself and also honoring the other party that may be having their own journey with your, with your authenticity? Well, then I finish up by talking about, you know, what, what you could do, how you can live a purposeful life. And what I learned in my own journey is that there is a direct correlation between authenticity and purposefulness. You cannot separate the two. When you are authentic, when you're living authentically, you don't have to find your purpose because your purpose will find you. As you continue to show up authentically, you know, you will step into new spaces. Doors will open up for you to do new things, great things. And so that's kind of what the book is about. It's more of an invitation to the reader saying, okay, this is what I had do. Get honest with myself. What do you have to do to get honest with what your heart is inviting you to consider.

Amanda Hammett: So Gabrielle, following that thread for just a second? What conversations has your book spark? Has your book sparked?

Gabrielle Claiborne: Well, one of the conversations that it sparked is what does authentic leadership look like in the workplace? And I've actually started doing a lot of speaking around authentic leadership because, you know, when it comes to showing up in the workplace authentically, there's a lot of barriers that often times. We have to, we have to navigate over, around and through. Right. And what I've learned is that, and I think a lot of organizations are learning this as well. If you want to maximize your employees, uh, um, production, production, and productivity, you have to allow them to bring their whole self to work. Right. I mean, we ha we've heard story after story in the training work that we'd done, that when you know, a person finally lets go of people's perception and expectations on how they show up and they finally show up authentically their performance reviews actually improve. So when we're talking about authentic leadership, when we're talking about showing up in the workplace authentically, it means, you know, doing those things that we have, we have to do to honor ourselves. Be visible. And at the same time, perhaps providing educational opportunity and educational conversation for those around us, who may not really understand what we're having to navigate. Right. So it's opened this door up around authenticity in the workshop, in the workplace and what it means to be an authentic leader.

Jeffery Tobias Halter: So I think this is a great segue point to kind of bridge, you know, our previous conversation around the work you do and your book. And also as we always talk about allyship, so Gabrielle as an ally, how do I even start to have a conversation? You know, because I, you know, I we we've had other guests on, uh, and, and it's not your job as a transgender woman to teach the world. Now you take that role on, but most transgender women wouldn't necessarily want to go there.

Gabrielle Claiborne: Right.

Jeffery Tobias Halter: So, so talk to us about what allies can do. What would you like us to do to start this conversation?

Gabrielle Claiborne: Great question. The question we get all the time. Uh, I think the first thing that I would say is you can educate yourself. You don't have to wait on me. You don't have to wait on another trans person. Right? I mean, my goodness, we have Google, And if you Google trans advocacy or trans ally, I will tell you, you will have more information pop up on your screen, then you will know what to do with. So, and, and, and to your point, Jeff, it's really not, it's not realistic to expect for someone else to educate you. I mean, when we're talking about other, uh, inclusion and diversity inclusion initiatives, One of the things is that you've got to do your own work, right?It's no different in this conversation. So do your own work, educate yourself. We got a great resource on our website and I think that's going to be shared at the end of our time together today. So we really, you know, get plugged into that. That's a great place to start. I think another thing that you can do. To, uh, to be a good ally and advocate is understand the importance of pronouns. And I mean, my goodness, I feel like every time we have a conversation, pronouns comes up and as a trans person, I like, okay, let's get the awkward downs, but guess what? We're not beyond pronouns yet because people really don't understand why pronouns are so important to trans and gender expansive folks. Right. So something that you can do. Uh, to advocate for a trans person is add your pronouns to your LinkedIn profile. Add your pronouns to your Instagram profile, add your pronouns to your zoom name. Right. You can see my pronouns in my name here. If you, if you have a website showing, you know, uh, uh, Bio's, have your leadership team add pronouns to your leadership team's page. This is a great way to communicate to the trans community that you understand the importance of pronouns and that you're not expecting them to educate you on the importance of pronouns. Right. Um, I think another thing that is important to understand is that to your earlier point, Jeff, when, you know, not all trans people want to, you know, embrace and carry that mantle of advocacy, they just want to show up. They just want to be, right. And so consequently, you may not even know you're in the presence of a trans person. And so if a trans person decides to confide in you about their identity, That is for them to share and for you to hold in confidence, that is not something that you share outside of that conversation. So understanding the importance of not outing someone is important, and it's actually a matter of safety for many of us.

Amanda Hammett: Yes.

Gabrielle Claiborne: So those are the three things right off the top of my head that I feel like folks could do right now.

Amanda Hammett: Right now. You know, thank you so much for pointing out that safety piece. I think that that's something that I think that that's something that unfortunately we don't think about until it's too late until it's the new story. So specifically for sharing that piece, um, could you tell us a little bit more to switch gears a little bit. Uh, could we talk a little bit about the TGX 360 employment and entrepreneurship initiative? And specifically, I want to know for our listeners, is this a Georgia initiative or are there similar programs happening across the US or even globally?

Gabrielle Claiborne: So I'll answer the last question first. Yes, it is. Yes it is a Georgia initiative and yes, there are other programs that are already doing this work across the country and Philly. And, um, Seattle in LA, there's a number of different, uh, organizations, nonprofit organizations that are actually propping themselves up to advocate for equitable employment and entrepreneurship for trans and gender expansive individuals. And just so everyone understands what gender expansive term means. Okay. Um, over time. Our language continues to evolve, you know, just five years ago, uh, non binary folks started become becoming more visible because they started developing the language around their lived experience that they could actually use to articulate how they show up. Right. So non-binary individuals are those individuals who are that don't identify as neither male or female or a combination of both. And this, this non-binary gender identity that is really kind of an umbrella. If you will, there's a number of different non-binary identities that fall under this umbrella. And as our language continues to evolve, we're trying to find an acronym that actually works for everyone. So while trans is its own umbrella, typically, and sometimes non-binary folks sometimes fit under the trans umbrella, but not all the time. The TGX transgender expansive is becoming kind of an umbrella that encompasses all the different non-binary identities that fall under it. So that's what that TGX represents. So yes, it is a statewide initiative and it's actually an initiative that is supported by the out Georgia business Alliance, which is Georgia's only LGBTQ chamber of commerce. And this initiative is to advocate for equitable employment for TGX job seekers, as well as equitable entrepreneurship. Through mentorship opportunities for our TGX entrepreneurs. When you look at the data and the statistics of employment and entrepreneurship for the trans and gender expansive community, the data is woefully falling short of, you know, any other measurements or metrics that are out there when we're tracking impact of employment, equitable employment. So one of the reasons that we've develop this initiative is to meet those who are most marginalized in our community. That is our black and brown trans and gender expansive, uh, siblings, uh, brothers and sisters, who don't even have access a lot of times to these employers who could otherwise set them right side up and get them moving forward in their life, uh, from an equitable perspective. So this initiative is, is built strategically. To meet those folks where they are and bring them along through job readiness programs, to job fairs, where we're going to, we're going to position them in front of vetted employees or employers that will actually know how to navigate the conversations with a gender diverse individual showing up in their workplace so that we can set them up for success. That's what the initiative is about. We have an advisory group that we have developed that represents a cross section of our community, because we want to make sure that, uh, all of the voices in our community of all the different intersections of our lived experiences is informing our work. As we move forward.

Jeffery Tobias Halter: Wow. Um, what a segment, uh, you know, how we never seem to have enough time. Um, but I want to, uh, personally, thank you Gabrielle for coming on. Uh, thank you as a friend and a colleague, uh, and for the amazing, amazing work you're doing, uh, that is, that is really driving differences. Um, you know, for our listeners, uh, just a reminder it's pride month, you can do one thing as an ally, and that is show up, just go to a pride event and take it in. And start to go from there. If you want to know more Gabrielle gave you some free, amazing tools that she has on her website, www.TransformationJourneysww.com You can find out more about her and her book.
Uh, we're going to have you on again in the future. Um, and so, uh, it's just been, uh, our pleasure and our joy to, uh, to chat with you today. So thanks for coming on.

Gabrielle Claiborne: Thank you for having me.

Disclaimer: This transcript was created using YouTube’s translator tool and that may mean that some of the words, grammar, and typos come from a misinterpretation of the video.

Win(e)d Down Wednesday Podcast with Jeffery Tobias Halter and Amanda Hammett

Gabrielle Claiborne – Pride Month 2022: Including everyone benefits everyone

How do we create cultures of understanding and belonging for gender-diverse individuals? And what role can each of us play in creating diverse and inclusive workplaces? Gabrielle Claiborne, co-founder of Transformation Journeys Worldwide, works with corporate clients to address the cultural assumptions we all have and develop strategies to create inclusive cultures and workplaces that embrace LGBTQ colleagues–with a focus on trans and gender non-binary people. It’s Pride Month and in light of the anti-transgender legislation that is rolling out locally and nationally now is the time for allies to show up and support their gender-diverse colleagues. The more we show up, the more we elevate conversations, and the more we advocate than collectively we bring visibility to a topic and someone’s lived experience. Get courageous and have uncomfortable conversations–tune in to learn more.

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Disclaimer: This transcript was created using YouTube’s translator tool and that may mean that some of the words, grammar, and typos come from a misinterpretation of the video.

The Transcript - Interview with Gabrielle Claiborne

Amanda Hammett: Well, good afternoon. Today we are talking with Gabrielle Claiborne about pride month and the role each of us can play in creating diverse and inclusive workplaces. My name is Amanda Hammett and y'all it is summer in Atlanta. I am drinking a little vodka club soda, dress it up with mint and lime.

Jeffery Tobias Halter: Very nice, I liked the mint part.

Jeffery Tobias Halter: You know, I go to my ice tea of wines, a little French Rosé. Uh you're right. It's Atlanta, it's hot. And so, you know, you gotta, you gotta refresh, you gotta refresh. Um, and, uh, what a great show we have planned. Um, it's my honor to introduce, uh, Gabrielle Claiborne. She's a friend, a colleague. I'll share more about how we came to meet Uh, but first I have to, uh, introduce her. Uh, Gabrielle Claiborne is the co-founder and CEO of "Transformation Journeys Worldwide" inclusive training and consulting firm with a transgender and gender expansive focus, her award-winning and certified LGBTQ business helps cutting-edge organizations position themselves to attract and retain the best talent and foster collaborative working environments. Directly impacting the bottom line by creating fully trans inclusive cultures, really impressive resume. She currently serves as the co-chair of the national LGBTQ chamber of commerce TGX initiative. We're going to hear about more of that later. She's co-chair of the trans affair committee on the city of Atlanta's LGBTQ. Mayoral advisory council. She's secretary of out Georgia business Alliance and as chair of the TGX 360 workplace and enterprise initiative, how you do all that is beyond me. In 2020, she published her memoir a self-help book. Embrace Your Truth: A Journey of Authenticity She is a sought after speaker. She's a TEDx speaker, she's an activist and a thought leader whose work has been featured in Forbes and the Atlanta business Chronicle. Wow.

Amanda Hammett: I mean, I'm tired, just hearing about, I mean, all that you've been able to accomplish that is amazing. Well, Gabrielle, welcome to the show. Welcome to Win(e)d Down Wednesday. So Jeff and I have shared, what are you drinking today?

Gabrielle Claiborne: Well, I would be dragging a Molbak, but I'm heading to the beach in two days. So I'm trying to stay clean and drink water. But typically my drink of choice is a Molbak. So thank you for having me. It's so great to be a part of this conversation today.

Jeffery Tobias Halter: Well, Gabrielle, it's been a while since we've talked, but I have to share the, uh, uh, the way we met, uh, and, and the growth that I have just seen you take exponentially. Uh, Seven or eight years ago, I think I was doing an event for the Georgia Tech Women in engineering. Gabrielle is a Georgia Tech engineer. And, um, she was an audience member and we connected following our talk. And I just said, oh my gosh, you've got such an amazing product. You've got so much to tell. And, and she took off from there. She got a TEDx, She wrote a book. She's in all these huge board seats. Uh, and so, uh, I am just so proud of everything you've accomplished, the amazing work you're doing. Um, it's, it's truly, truly amazing, but I want to share, I want you to share just a little bit more about your personal story. And your background.

Gabrielle Claiborne: Yeah. Thank you, Jeff. And, uh, it, you know, I can't believe it's been seven to eight years already. Oh my goodness. Where's the time gone, right? Um, so, you know, for much of my life, I was raised in a culture that expected me to show. The way that culture expects a white cisgender straight male to show up. Right. I've got a great education. Uh, grew up in a home of family where, you know, I was a Pentecostal preacher's kid. My parents raised me in a wonderful home. Life with my sister. Um, I got married and we had three amazing kids. I own the construction company for 30 plus years, uh, and, and showed up that way, uh, in our culture, all the, all along. There was something playing the background around this internal agenda dilemma that I still had no words to describe. I mean, I, I knew that there was something different about me at the age of eight, but because of the environment that I grow in, because this is way before the internet, I'm not going to tell you how far back that was. Uh, you know, we just didn't have the language to understand these types of dynamics that were happening. Not only my life, but many folks. You know, across, you know, throughout our world, we're grappling with those same internal agendas, dilemma dynamics. And there were a number of invitations throughout my life that were inviting me to get honest with who I really was. Right. And what I didn't, what I didn't see at that moment was that they were invitations. I perceived them as setbacks, as failures, as disappointment's. But I learned to reframe those things to invitations and it wasn't until 2010. When I finally met myself for the first time internally and externally aligned, I saw myself in the mirror as Gabrielle in my true feminine expression. And immediately when I saw myself in the mirror. I said that's me. So that set me on the course of finding, not only me, but what is mine to do in this world? I'm a big app for purposeful living. I'm all about leaving a legacy in our world. Unfortunately, when I came out as is the case with many trans and gender expansive individuals, my life turned upside down with my family, with my vocation, with my friends, with my spiritual community. I mean, everything turned upside down and I had to literally start my life over at the age of 50. And so this set me on the course of You know, finding, what can I do to survive as a transgender woman. And so when I first transitioned, there were a couple of vocational integrations. I had a cleaning company and a home renovation company because I was somewhat bringing that forward into my new, you know, existence in this world. But over time as I continue to step more into my authenticity as a transgender woman, those vocation iterations really didn't work for me anymore. And I've always wanted to be an advocate for my community. So, uh, seven years ago, my business partner and I co-founded Transformation Journeys Worldwide, which you kind of gave a brief description of who we are and what we do. And so today, What we are doing is we're in now showing up in fortune 100, 500 companies, medical and mental health care providers, municipalities, educational institutions, even spiritual communities, and helping them create cultures of understanding and belonging. For gender diverse individuals. And it has been a journey that has been so rewarding. It has been a journey that has been so scary because, you know, starting from scratch and starting in starting this type of company with a message that was so new to so many folks we were concerned, you know, is this actually going to be something that folks are going to invest in? So we're very grateful that seven years later, We're saying yes, folks are really leaning into these conversations and we're very grateful for that.

Amanda Hammett: Well, Gabrielle, I just, first of all, I want to commend you for the bravery that, that this has taken. Um, and, and I just, I find her story incredibly inspiring. Um, so I would love you gave me a perfect segue. So I would love to talk a little bit about your clients, the work that you're currently doing. And if you can give us like a success story, I would love that.

Gabrielle Claiborne: Absolutely. Well, like I initially mentioned, you know, we have a. A plethora of markets that we show up yet. Right. I think our bread and butter is the corporate space because they have the dollars typically to invest in these types of conversations. So, you know, we have seven years ago when we first started the business, we kind of didn't know what we didn't know. So we started with, with, uh, the basic conversation, the basic training, if you will, it was called the trans 101 in interacting, respectfully. With gender diverse individuals. And it was kind of more of a personal cultural competency conversation, right? Where we talked about the cultural assumptions that we all have around gender. Uh, we, we integrated, uh, parts of the conversation, including the importance of language in terms and definitions, because it was all new for many folks and it's still new to this day. Uh, and I shared my personal story, and then we Ended it with kind of a call to action by inviting the audience to understand what they can do to be personally competent when it comes to being a good ally and advocate for gender diverse individuals. And that that training really took off and, Come to find out what happened is, is our clients were coming back to us and they were saying, Gabrielle, what else can we do? What else, what other conversations do we need to be mindful of? Do we need to be leaning into, so over the course of this last seven years, we have developed a very robust curriculum from trans 101 to trans 202, which talks about business case and best practices for. Not only that personal cultural competency track, but also an organizational cultural competency track. But then we also provide targeted trainings for talent acquisition, HR managers, even, uh, customer service reps at call centers. Um, so this conversation, I think what a lot of folks are now recognizing in we're actually encouraged in them To understand that this is not a 60 or 90 minute conversation. This is a journey that we're on, right? It's not so much about the destination. It's more about the journey. So we're, we're very grateful that we are now beginning to show up in this kind of thought leader space. Like Jeff said to where folks are now reaching out to us saying we need some support, we need some help. And I will tell you some of the amazing. What, what makes us feel good and purposeful in our work are the amazing strides that organizations are taking. I want to, UPS is one of our clients. And as a result of doing a number of different trainings with them, they actually implemented a implemented a gender diverse. Um, inclusive, an inclusive dress code policy across 500,000 people in their organization. It's things like this that organizations are actually leaning into so that they can create that space of belonging to become that elusive employer of choice for a very gender diverse marketplace.

Jeffery Tobias Halter: Wow. You know, The impact you're having is just amazing. Uh, I want to stay on kind of this business track, but I also want to acknowledge it's pride month. And I know you're involved in, in a lot of pride activities. There's a lot of, uh, corporate involvement, but there's also a lot of, uh, allies who, you know, want to come to pride and be supportive. So I'm going to leave this really open-ended. Um, what are the themes? What are the challenges? What are the opportunities. That you want to talk to allies and non allies about during pride month.

Gabrielle Claiborne: Great question, Jeff. And I can tell you now more than ever, we need to be having some conversations around the things that are happening locally and nationally here in our country. I mean, my goodness, when you'll start looking at the legislation, the anti-trans legislation, that's rolling out across our country. You know, we have folks who are reaching out to us saying. You know Gabrielle, what can we do? I mean, how do we advocate for these types of, uh, anti led anti-trans legislation so that we can be good advocates? And, and so I think one thing that folks need to understand is that, you know, when, when we typically think about going to vote. We think about going to vote for things that are important to us. I think because of the dynamic of where we're living in the dynamic of our culture, we live in a very polarized culture right now. And because of that, I think we start, we start, we need to start expanding our, our understanding of what our vote really means. Our vote is not just for ourselves and it is for ourselves, but it also is for those who we're trying to advocate for, we're trying to elevate for. So making sure that you're. You know, thinking about the things that are impacting someone else who may have a different lived experience from you is very important. So that's what we encourage folks to do is really educate yourself on what your candidate stands for and make sure that you're voting for the person that really will, will make not only will not only allow you to show up, but also others that may have a different lived experience. So that's one thing I would recommend. The other thing is, is visibility. Visibility. I think visibility is all of our superpowers. The more we show up, the more we advocate, the more we elevate other conversations. I mean, just like you and Amanda are doing today, you're at, you're advocating by elevating this conversation today to hopefully. Expand the perspective and the understanding of humanity. I mean, my goodness, when you think about the diversity in our world, trans people are just another expression of the human experience. And so as we elevate, as we continue and lean into these conversations, we understand what it means to, even though someone may have a different lived experience than them. What it means to sit down across the table, get to know them. I know a lot of times folks asked me, Gabrielle, how can we dispel this polarization? That's in our culture. And my answers sit down across the table, get courageous enough, being uncomfortable, get courageous about being comfortable with being uncomfortable and sit down across the table with someone who is different from you and get to know them. And you will find out That you have more in common with them with not, I mean, we're doing this around race conversations, we're doing this around other conversation, ability conversations. It's no different when you're talking about gender diversity.

Amanda Hammett: You know, I'm, I'm really glad that you brought this up. The, the being able to be comfortable being uncomfortable. And I think that that is an idea that sometimes in corporate America, is very uncomfortable for a lot of people and they don't push that envelope. So I'd like, I'd like a little advice from you. Um, let's lean into your insights. Let's lean into your process. What advice do you have for organizations as they strive to be more inclusive?

Gabrielle Claiborne: Great question. I think that. They not only need to establish a personal cultural competency within their organization, across the board. Okay. All employees, right. They also need to understand what are the best practices that organizations are leaning into when it comes to create that creating that culture of belonging. Right. Things like, You know, are you looking at your HR policies to make sure that trans and gender diverse folks see themselves in your, in your forms? Right? Are you, are you asking for pronouns? Are you asking for gender neutral titles? Are you asking for identities that a trans person can say, I'm comfortable checking this box. I see myself in this form, right? Making sure your HR Is doing those kinds of things, looking at your IT systems, you know, are you able to accommodate an individual who may not have legally changed their name yet, but they want to go buy a different, because it aligns with who they know themselves to be and how they're identifying, excuse me. So now organizations are recognizing the importance of making their IT systems flexible enough to allow for those accommodations, making sure your talent acquisition teams know how to navigate conversations with potential job applicants who may not have fully aligned legal documents. You may be sending across the table with a job advocate who is totally qualified for the role that you're trying to feel, but they may have. Uh, driver's license that doesn't have an aligned name. They may have a driver's license who doesn't have that doesn't have an aligned photo. These are some of the things that organizations have to start being mindful of when it comes to creating that culture of belonging. And then it's not just how they're showing up inside the four walls of their organization is how they're showing up outside of four walls. Are you showing up in the spaces? That my community are showing up been. Are you showing up at your local pride organization? Are you a member or a partner of your local LGBTQ chamber of commerce? The, when, when I see in my community sees an individual or an organization showing up in that space, then I'm going to lean in a little closer and say, Hmm, perhaps they are an employer of choice that I need to research. Right? So those are just a few things that I would recommend that folks really consider aligning to.

Jeffery Tobias Halter: Wow, what a great session, uh, you know, we're, uh, we're planning on bringing you back. We have so much more to talk about that we haven't gotten to yet. So, uh, we're going to have you back in, um, in a future episode, but I just want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for everything you are doing personally, um, for all our listeners and for all our allies out there, it's June. One simple action. And you know, Amanda and I talk about this. Every show, one simple action. You can take, go to a pride event, go as an ally. Just show up with an open mind and go learn and start a conversation. So that's our call to action for this month. Um, Gabrielle, we want to thank you. We're going to have you on again, but if you want more information about Gabrielle and her work, either personally or corporately, or to find out about her book, go to her website, www.TransformationJourneysww which is worldwide, but it's ww.com. We will also post that on our link. Gabrielle, always a pleasure. Thank you for joining us.

Gabrielle Claiborne: Thank you. Thank you.

Disclaimer: This transcript was created using YouTube’s translator tool and that may mean that some of the words, grammar, and typos come from a misinterpretation of the video.

Win(e)d Down Wednesday Podcast with Jeffery Tobias Halter and Amanda Hammett

Own the power of your age with Bonnie Marcus

High-achievers this episode is for you. Career coach, author and host of the podcast, Badass Women at Any Age, Bonnie Marcus returns to discuss her books “The Politics of Promotion: How High-achieving women get ahead and stay ahead” and “Not Done Yet! How Women Over 50 Regain Their Confidence and Claim Workplace Power.” Don’t miss the conversation about gendered ageism, understanding office politics and navigating organizations today along with tips for new managers to help launch your careers.

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Disclaimer: This transcript was created using YouTube’s translator tool and that may mean that some of the words, grammar, and typos come from a misinterpretation of the video.

The Transcript - Interview with Bonnie Marcus

Jeffery Tobias Halter: Good afternoon. Today we're focusing on the intersection of age and gender in the workplace. I'm Jeffery Tobias Halter, and today I'm enjoying a nice Italian Pinot Grigio. And it's always my pleasure to welcome my co-host. Amanda Hammett, Amanda, what's your beverage of choice today?

Amanda Hammett: Well, Jeffery, I am drinking my usual favorites. My, as my husband refers to it, my boujee favorite, my raspberry hibiscus kombucha. So, uh, that is not all we're here to talk about today. Um, it is my honor to welcome and introduce Bonnie Marcus for part two of her Win(e)d Down Wednesday conversation. Bonnie is an executive coach, Author and international speaker with a passion for helping professional women gain the visibility and credibility. They need to have a fulfilling career. Uh, Bonnie is the author of two books, "The Politics of Promotion: How High-Achieving Women Get Ahead and Stay Ahead" And the recently published "Not Done Yet! How Women Over 50 Regain Their Confidence and Claim Workplace Power" Bonnie is also the host of the podcast. "Badass Women at Any Age" of which our very own Jeffery was the very first male guest.

Jeffery Tobias Halter: Well, thank you for Amanda, Bonnie. Welcome back to Win(e)d Down Wednesday. What's your beverage of choice today?

Bonnie Marcus: Well, I, like Amanda and drinking kombucha, but my favorite is ginger ale.

Amanda Hammett: Cheers.So Bonnie let's, let's dive in and don't worry, guess we're not going to be talking a kombucha for the rest of the episode. Um, but tell us a little bit about the feedback you've received from your book. "Not Done Yet!". Um, you know, what is it that's resonating with clients? You know, how, how are we seeing ages and really impact the workplace? And another question is. Our women's resource groups, even talking about this, how does something I would really, really love to hear about?

Bonnie Marcus: Okay. Well, a chance at the first part of your question, how it's resonating, uh, there's so many women in this age bracket, and I would say maybe even starting 45 to 50, who are so grateful. Uh, for the book, um, they're grateful to bring awareness to this topic because many of us have been suffering in silence. They're experiencing the combination of gender bias and age-ism there they feel they don't have a voice. Um, they're afraid to speak up at work. And so the book is kind of acknowledging like gendered age-ism is real folks and what you are experiencing is real. And, um, they're grateful for, for the book and for my research to really shine a light on it and let other people know, um, that this is what they are experiencing and how difficult it is. That's what the impact is for women financially over the course of their careers and also in regards to job security. So, um, I think that that is primarily the, the feedback that I've gotten from clients as far as employee resource groups. I'm just beginning to see. That some companies are paying more attention to this. And I know that the assumption might be that it's much more focused on women, maybe particular white women, but, uh, at least, um, a half a dozen companies have recently reached out to me that they want to build awareness in their company around the effect of gender, gendered age-ism and they don't know really where to start. So they're identifying that this is an issue, getting it and just opening the door crack, you know, baby steps,
Amanda Hammett: baby steps.

Jeffery Tobias Halter: Bonnie, I want to shift gears and go back to your first book. Um, "The Politics of Promotion: How High-Achieving Women Get Ahead and Stay Ahead". This has always been fascinating to me. You know, there really is something around corporate politics and it takes You know, just business people, men, and women to realize, yes, this is real. And I'm not saying people have to play politics, but you have to read the tea leaves. You have to be, you know, smart enough to what's going on. And oh, by the way, this is an issue that we've always heard women, uh, get left out of the conversation, right? Women are over mentored and under sponsored. We've heard all these things. Now, given the realities of COVID and hybrid working, what suggestions or adjustments do you have to understand office politics for women and, and help them to kind of read the new tea leaves? Maybe when you know what, they're not in the room. Everything's virtual. I'm not seeing my boss live anymore. Uh, this is hurting me. So, so what are your thoughts on this today? Especially given you're back to what's going on.

Bonnie Marcus: Right. Um, I think that first of all, women need to understand that even though they're not experiencing politics firsthand, it's still there. And it's important to see, have things changed. Have things shifted since we moved to a hybrid environment or since then working remotely have the power dynamics change. Pay attention to all the relationships and, and, um, who are some of the key influencers that's you still need to build a web of influence for yourself and stay tuned to who would make good allies and champions and how to, you know, create visibility for yourself. If your company's in a hybrid working environment, you need to be aware that for those people who are in the workplace, You know, physically, they have an advantage, right? And so I think it's important for women to try to be visible and be physically in the workplace and not say, oh, it's just easy that I can stay home and do my, my meetings by zoom, etcetera. And it may take a little work and, and practically speaking childcare, whatever to be able to make, make it, but for you to totally understand what's going on. Uh, you should try to be present. And if you can't, you should make it your intention to set up meetings with, with your manager on a very regular basis, to be able to make sure that that manager understands what you're accomplishing on your own outside of the workplace. Um, you know, I tell my clients to prepare a weekly status report, regardless of if you're meeting or not just there's written documentation of, of what you be, you know what you're doing. So it dispels any kind of, of, uh, assumptions that you're not working as hard.

Amanda Hammett: Yes, that's, that's great advice. So to piggyback on that for just a second, you know, you, you're an executive coach, you work with high achieving women and you help them navigate this, these workplace politics and, you know, get the promotions that they really do deserve. What would be your one piece of favorite advice for a new manager?

Bonnie Marcus: Pay attention.

Amanda Hammett: Expound on that a little bit.

Bonnie Marcus: Well, I think that, um, especially for a new manager, we're so anxious to get great results and to do good work and to be productive and to be known as, as a player, right. As somebody who's a great contributor that we don't pay attention to what's going on around us. And that sets us up to be blindsided. And this certainly happened, you know, in my own career, I had to learn this lesson the hard way, but pay attention to what's going on around you, who has power and influence. Um, what does it take to be successful in your environment, in your department, with your manager, um, and not to make assumptions and what does it take to be successful for a woman and is that different than it might be for a man? So paying attention to all the dynamics, um, will help you keep on track and knowing. That you do need to work hard. You do need to get results, but you also need to pay attention to what's going on.

Jeffery Tobias Halter: You know, it's been great talking to you for these, these couple episodes. And, uh, as we wrap up, I'd be really remiss. If I didn't ask you about the title of your podcast, "Bad-ass Women at any age", I'm sure there's a story there. And I would love to hear maybe a story, uh, but advice from, uh, one of the women that you have in your podcast.

Bonnie Marcus: Oh, gosh. Well, first of all, how did I get that name? You know, when I started to write my book "Not Done Yet!", the original title was bad-ass women at any age. And I was, and then I thought I'll, bad-ass maybe it's being over done over done, but I found a quote by Katie Couric and I'm going to read it cause I, so I don't misquote her. She defines a bad-ass as someone who stands up for herself is confident, um, and is not afraid to challenge the hierarchy. The patriarchy or conventional thinking. And I was like, yeah, that's a badass, you know what it, you know, um, it's amazing how many women come on the show and don't even acknowledge the the term badass. Um, until they go through this interview and then they were like, oh yeah, you know, I can own that. But the point of the podcast is that when we share our stories, um, and we share our experiences and the lessons we've learned, the challenges we've overcome, it really inspires other women to step up and own who they are and, and be their bad-ass self.

Jeffery Tobias Halter: Bonnie, Thank you so much for joining us today. For more information on Bonnie, her work and books, along with our link to our podcast. Check out her website at bonniemarcusleadership.com. Bonnie, thank you for joining us today.

Bonnie Marcus:
Thank you for having me.

Disclaimer: This transcript was created using YouTube’s translator tool and that may mean that some of the words, grammar, and typos come from a misinterpretation of the video.

Win(e)d Down Wednesday Podcast with Jeffery Tobias Halter and Amanda Hammett

Gender equality in tech: The power of the question “How can I help?” with Eva Helén – Part II

Men, are you unsure where to begin or if your involvement is needed (or wanted) to advance women and minorities in the workplace? Tech maverick Eva Helén joins us to talk about her book Women in Tech — A Book for Guys. After discovering that men often tune out during DEI sessions, Eva developed a series of vignettes to share what men are already doing to support women and minorities at work. Her approach allows men to see the range of actions available to them and self-assess their next steps. Tune in to learn the power of the question, “How can I help?” and why it matters when you support your co-workers and colleagues.

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Disclaimer: This transcript was created using YouTube’s translator tool and that may mean that some of the words, grammar, and typos come from a misinterpretation of the video.

The Transcript - Interview with Eva Helen Part II

Jeffery Tobias Halter: Welcome to our show. Today we're continuing a conversation. We started earlier this year, focusing on women in tech and what men can do to facilitate equality and the advancement of women. I'm Jeffery Tobias Halter, and today I'm enjoying a nice dry French Rosé I've found you can drink it anytime of the day. And so it's really my go-to win(e)d down drink of choice. Amanda, what are you drinking today?

Amanda Hammett: So I am on water today. I have to rehydrate again. Um, it's been a rough week and it's only Wednesday. So there we are. Um, anyway, but let's, let's dive into our guests and not even dwell on that. So it is my honor to welcome and introduce. Eva Helén, uh, for part two of her Win(e)d Down Wednesday conversation with us, uh, Eva is an entrepreneur with 20 years of experience in the tech field. Uh, she's also the founder of EQ inspiration, which offers programs for men and mixed groups in tech, wishing to help advance women and minorities in the workplace.

Jeffery Tobias Halter: Eva, welcome back to Win(e)d Down Wednesday we're excited to have you back until, uh, talk more about your book and that conversation. We started earlier this year, but first I've got to ask what's your beverage of choice today?

Eva Helén: Okay, so it's going to have to be a double espresso.

Amanda Hammett: You mentioned that in the last one, so I'm, I'm impressed that you're still with that.

Eva Helén: I mean, I'm serious. We're in this house here where I live with my family. We're very serious about our coffee. Um, and occasionally I'll go with an oatmeal cappuccino, but I tell you a double espresso beats, pretty much everything.

Amanda Hammett: I agreed, agreed, especially to give you that little afternoon lift so wonderful. So Eva, if you don't mind, um, sharing with us in the first episode, we talked about your book women in tech, a book for guys. So guys for you, um, and we discussed the seven male prototypes that emerged in your research. If you don't mind, let's, let's continue that conversation about the prototypes and how you see men using your book or the models that you presented to actually advance women.

Eva Helén: So the reason, um, that I thought it was a good idea, or it kind of just came to me after studying all the research that I had done with all these interviews with men, particularly in tech and tech related industries, Was that I started to understand also by talking to them that the message that was being delivered to them during trainings or workshops, didn't always suit them. Uh, very often they felt like they were tuning out the already, before the present there was getting into the real material. Um, something just didn't appeal to them. So as these seven character prototypes emerge, I thought, well, of course you can't very well. Um, if you have a new sales team, for example, or you have your, your manager of a sales team, you have some new employees, you have some that have been there for a long time. You can't coach them all the same way. If you are a parent and you have a couple of children or more, you know, that if you want to get them to the same kind of finish line, you have to coach them along differently because they're all different. And so I thought, well, that makes sense. I can't deliver the same message. To all of these men, what I think the commonality is that nobody likes to be told what to do, because I don't like to be told what to do. So what I did in the book is as I present these seven character prototypes of men is I introduce different ways for each one of them, um, to support women and minorities directly or indirectly. And I'm not proposing to them what to do, but I'm simply sharing what other men at the character prototype level above theirs are already doing. That's it.

Amanda Hammett: Would you mind sharing with the audience before we move on the actual seven and how they came up with their name?

Eva Helén: Yes, so at the top we have the three advocates, Mark, James, and Samir. Mark originally, I got the idea for the name from men advocating for real change, which is an organization out of New York. Um, James is a Um, he's a change agent. He changes the culture of the organization. He works with the entire team. So if you're an agent, you're a bond James Bond. So therefore his name is James. Um, Samir really got his name because I needed a good name. Uh, well, that also didn't feel like a white guy's name, uh, that started with an S so Samir was the first thing that came to mind. Memo, sounds like mentor. So now we're moving into the three under, so the first top three are the advocates. The next three are the allies, and the allies are Memo, Cree, Uh, sorry, Memo, Al, and Cree. Memo is a mentor who mentors, women one-on-one. And so I needed a name that started with an M and my husband's nickname is Memo. So I asked him, is it okay? Uh, to use your nickname and would you like it in the book? And he said, yes, I would like that very much. Now he's not a Memo. He's a Samir, but that's that's, it gets a little complicated. The next level is Al he's the happy go lucky ally, the typical ally, the one who desperately wants to support and help, but has absolutely no clue where to start. We love him. And he's very, um, receptive, shall we say to the message and, uh, his willingness to help is, is great. So if you give them just small things to do small ideas, it's really easy for him to implement them without taking any extra time out of his Workday. Um, so Al is ally. That's where that came from. Cree was an interesting one. He's the only person who actually, or a character prototype who actually changed name names a few times throughout the process of writing the book it came from. I wanted to call that category, the convincible resistant. So Cree is the person who, when you start to talk about these topics of diversity and inclusion tends to kind of withdraw, not because he's not interested, but he gets a little bit uncomfortable. Um, and so I wanted a name with a C and an R in it. And Chris was pretty common among my interviewees, so I couldn't use that. And then we had another name for a little while, but then we landed on a Cree because I thought it was such a special, a different name from where I come from. And then finally at the bottom, the seventh character prototype is Richard. Um, and I'm sorry if some people find it offensive, it's been, it's meant to be taken a little bit as a joke. Um, but his nickname is often used in the context of being somebody who is not aligned with the general efforts and somebody who is a little bit, um, uh, oppose to change shall we say.

Amanda Hammett: Uh, we use the name Richard around my office quite often. So no worries.

Jeffery Tobias Halter: That is too funny. That is too funny. I absolutely loved those. I've done this work for 20 plus years and Being able to put people into those places or quite frankly have them. Self-assess almost into those places I think is phenomenal. Um, as we, as we kind of want to, I can't go deep into each of the seven, but you made a statement in your book that all men can do better at supporting at supporting women. You know, if you had to cut across, maybe we'll go with the top six. What's one thing that those men could all do for our listeners. What would be that one thing that might cut across those top six?

Eva Helén: I think the easiest one is always to ask, how can I help? And it is a very, um, even for so As I was explaining in our last episode, um, was that the allies are still a little bit self-conscious and a little bit focused on themselves. What if I say, or do the wrong thing? What if I support somebody and it's going to affect my career? Anything like that. The advocates are very focused on other people, but even for the allies. When they're in a one-on-one conversation with a woman, maybe it's even somebody who they know really well, somebody on their team, but they don't know them very well. It is not that difficult, even for that person to say, Hey, how can I help? When you're an advocate and you're at the top of this matrix, the how can I help, might be because He's tuned into a situation that nobody else has noticed. So it might be a more delicate matter or a more difficult topic, or how can I help the answer to that might be, well you know, I'd love to work for you as a boss, but the culture of this company is very difficult for me. So then that advocate finds himself having to start addressing. The culture of the team or the organization, which is not something that we can ask an ally to do, but the, so how can I help you? Is common across all of those six categories.

Amanda Hammett: Excellent. Excellent. I love that. So what advice would you give to a middle manager who wants to help advance women. Maybe they have not read the book yet, so they can't self-select if they are a Mark or a Richard or where on the spectrum that they fall. But what advice would you give to them if they just don't know where to begin?

Eva Helén: I would suggest take the self assessment or read the book because the thing is that it doesn't. So, so, the different character prototypes are not at all in any way, tied to the level you're at on the heirarchy. Of your organization. So you can be an individual contributor and be a Mark just as well as unfortunately you can be the CEO of a company and be a Richard.Absolutely. So there's no, no, there's no connection. I've not been able to find any kind of pattern. I'll find the same amount of Richards at the entry level professionals. As I found at the find at the top. However, the majority of the people in my research ended up in the Cree and Al categories. So the bottom part of the allies. And so if we assume that this middle manager who you're talking about is an Al or a Cree. And they're thinking about how can I actually get more women in, onto my team or into my organization. They may not even be ready for that statement Al probably Is he saying, sure, I love to work with women. They're great. I want to bring more onto the team. The first thing he needs to do is go to the women who he already has on his team and ask them about their experiences. If there are things that are really good. That he can talk about when he interviews other women. If there are things that are not so good so that he can actually start to address those.

Jeffery Tobias Halter: You know, I love in closing that the names you picked and I'll bounce this off, uh, Amanda for a second. Kind of millennial sounding, right. Memo and Cree. You know, these, these are not old white guys. I liked the jazz, you know, that, that puts out. So with that, um, you know, we never have enough time. So we want to thank you for joining us today. Um, and if you were to hold your book up, please, uh, for people who are coming to our website to see the, uh, the video portion, um, you'll find out more information about Eva, her work in her book, women in tech. On her website, eqinspiration.com We're going to post that in our podcast and also on our website. But I just wanted to thank you so much for, for joining us. Again, the message is so relevant and we just need hundreds and hundreds of people talking about how to we create more male allies and advocates. So thank you so much for joining us today.

Eva Helén: Thank you.

Disclaimer: This transcript was created using YouTube’s translator tool and that may mean that some of the words, grammar, and typos come from a misinterpretation of the video.

Win(e)d Down Wednesday Podcast with Jeffery Tobias Halter and Amanda Hammett

What do sales and leadership have in common? Judy Hoberman explains

What assumptions are you making about people with disabilities? What is ableism and how does it impact the workplace? Building an inclusive culture is critical for success in today's marketplace. Our disabled colleagues want to be included and share in organizational goals and outcomes. Catarina Rivera, MSEd, MPH, CPACC, also known as the @BlindishLatina on Instagram, talks about disability, ableism, microaggressions and other biases that keep people with disabilities out of the workplace or thwart their ability to fully participate. Join us for a candid look at diversity and inclusion–and your role in creating an inclusive culture.

Share the LOVE and TWEET about this episode.

Don't miss an episode. Subscribe to Win(e)d Down Wednesday.

Disclaimer: This transcript was created using YouTube’s translator tool and that may mean that some of the words, grammar, and typos come from a misinterpretation of the video.

The Transcript - Interview with Judy Hoberman

Jeffery Tobias Halter: Well, good afternoon. Today we are talking with Soon Mee Kim about Asian American and Pacific Islanders month and how we can talk about race and racism at work. But before we get started today, I want to share that I am drinking a fabulous, uh, Napa Rosé. This is actually, um, uh, called black girl magic and it's by two women, the McBride sister, I didn't have a valley and they have an entire portfolio. And so we're going to put a little push out for them, for you to go and enjoy some, some black girl magic It's nice April day So, uh, anyways, that's what I'm drinking, Amanda, what are you drinking today?

Amanda Hammett: I'm super jealous. Now, I have a little espresso I needed an afternoon. Um, so if by the end of this episode, I'm bouncing off the walls. My apologies to everyone. Well, wonderful. Wonderful. I am very excited, not just about my espresso, but actually about our guests. Um, it's my honor to introduce Soon Mee Kim, Soon Mee is the chief diversity equity and inclusion officer for Omnicom Public Relations Group and the Omnicom Brand Consultant Group. Um, the worldwide leader in marketing communication.Soon Mee is a dreamer and a doer and drives purposeful action. A twenty-five year communications agency veteran. She's a proven leader and creative problem solver with a passion for workplace culture, supporting the talent life cycle, very important stuff, and confronting systemic bias. Her forte is in uncovering and articulating the reasons why people should care about complex issues. Hence why she's here. So formally and informally, her favorite roles are that a mentor, coach and student.

Jeffery Tobias Halter: Soon Mee, welcome to Win(e)d Down Wednesday. And of course I have to ask what's your beverage of choice?

Soon Mee Kim: Well, Jeffery, Amanda, thank you so much for that very warm welcome I'm so excited to be here with you. My beverage of choice is an iced Korean coffee. It's in the stainless steel mug. That happens to say, Kyle, I have no idea where it comes from. I don't know who Kyle is, but somehow it's in my cupboard and I'm a, yes, I'm an enjoying a, a tall iced coffee.

Amanda Hammett: Well, thank you to Kyle this morning. Well, okay. Let's, let's dive in because we have a lot of ground to cover. Um, this year AAPI heritage month takes place against the backdrop of a rise in anti-aging crimes. Including online harassment during the pandemic. As some people have falsely blamed Asian-Americans for the spread of the coronavirus. Soon Mee, can you provide some background on AAPI heritage month and also talk for a minute about your background and the group that you recently co founded. Voices for AAPI.

Soon Mee Kim: Thank you so much, Amanda, for the question. So there's a lot in there. So I'll start with, um, Asian American Pacific Islander heritage month. Um, so the month, um, was first started as a, uh, a week and I think it was really difficult to even have that passed by, um, the US until even recently, I didn't really grow up celebrating, um, Asian-American Pacific Islander heritage month until I would say in the very I don't know, maybe last five, 10 years, but ultimately what it speaks to is just the need and the desire to understand a little bit more about Asian American and Pacific Islander, um, history as part of American history as a time to really celebrate the culture and that beautiful tapestry. That is part of what makes up, um, specifically America and, um, Really the fact that we are so interconnected, how we are all really interwoven. So it's really a commemorative time to think about history. Uh, sadly I think history is something that we all need to learn more about in many forms, but specifically, um, when I think about Asian-American and Pacific Islander history is something that's been very much invisibilized over, um, a long, long period of time. Um, Amanda, you also spoke about. The hate, sadly, the issue of hate against, um, our communities is not something new. It's something that has been going on, um, for a very long time. But it's certainly what we realized during this pandemic that it hasn't gone away. And it's very much targeted, um, to our communities. Since the beginning of the pandemic, there have been more than 10,000. Incidents that have been documented. We know there are more, um, and if you're following online, it doesn't, it hasn't stopped. It has not abated when bit we see continuous examples of terrible hate incidents that are directed towards people in our community. Um, More likely than not the elderly, um, and more likely than not women. So it's really terrible to see how in the midst of all of that. However, um, it's been a galvanizing moment for many organizations to form to address that into visibility that silencing, and certainly the hate as well. And voices for AAPI is one of them. Um, it's one of the ways that we're really trying to make sure that the fullness of who we are in our communities is recognized and that we are achieving systemic equity across our specific industry of communications, marketing and creative services.

Jeffery Tobias Halter: Um, so as we think about this and realize that we have mostly a business audience and we certainly want to connect and bring, you know, vital points to them, what are some of these experiences, both positive and negative Uh, of Asian-Americans in the workplace. Yeah.

Soon Mee Kim: I think there are a few concepts that are so important for those that are in the business setting in particular need to know about, because if you don't know about these concepts, that it's very likely whether you are a part of the community or you're not at that, you're thinking like, oh, it's just a one-off. Right. But, um, so when we realized like trends, like these are concepts, like these really point to a larger issue and a larger trend than it's different. So one example is the Model Minority Myth. Um, so it's often like, oh, you're a smart Asian, um, didn't your people go to Harvard or aren't you taking up, you know, like certain roles let's say in stem fields. And, you know, there can be things that are positive attributes that are directed towards folks. The sad thing about that, however, is that guess what? Maybe you're not a stem person. Maybe you're someone who wants to go into a creative field and you're deemed as someone who does not have, let's say the language skills or, um, the capabilities outside of that, but also just the term itself. There was a time I would say, in this country, um, where there was so much, um, discrimination. Um, well, let's just talk about Japanese internment as an example. And so this whole idea of the model minority was created as a wedge issue against the black community. It was created as one when the US for example, was very heavily invested in, um, In efforts overseas, particularly in Asia, so needed to address, like how do we improve upon our image and the world stage? So that's where a lot of the model minority myth even comes from. Um, there's also the issue of this idea of the perpetual foreigner. So Amanda, Jeffery, I don't think of you as somebody like this, but guess what? For a lot of people, they might see a name like mine, Soon Mee Kim They might see it come across their resume, that resume across the desk. And if they don't know me.There are several biases, implicit or explicit I'm immediately, like you might think like, oh, she's not American. She's not from here. Maybe she doesn't speak English. Um, and frankly, I was born here. I've been here probably a pretty long time. I would say I speak English pretty well. There's a lot of assumptions that can be made in those ways. That is, um, again, that idea that you can be here, multiple generations, you might've come here in the 1850s, um, to help build the transcontinental railroad. Um, you're, you know, there's so many different ways that, uh, of belonging, but if you are always considered a perpetual foreigner, if you're, if the default is to ask someone like, Hey, where are you from? No, no, no, no, no. Where are you really from? That is the idea that you're really at best. You're a guest here. And guests have to follow rules and understand rules, and it's not surprising then to be then told the K um, go back to your country. If you know, you're, you're not feeling that sense of like, um, belonging, if you will, but also, so the model minority myth, they perpetual foreigner. I think a third concept that folks have to be really recognized is one called the bamboo ceiling. So it's a kind of a play on the whole, glass ceiling, if you will. And so the bamboo ceiling really just speaks to the fact that, Hey, you know what, to me, somebody like you, you're a great worker, please continually continue working on these spreadsheets for us. Um, but you know what? I don't know that you're someone that I can really trust in a management position. Maybe you don't, you know, um, display what we think about as Um, leadership skills. And so very often folks get trapped in certain roles. Um, often Asian, Asian Americans, um, including Pacific Islanders are the most under promoted folks within, um, our organization. So that notion of the bamboo ceiling is real. Um, again, if you're talking to somebody individually, they may think like, Hey, this is just happening to me. Maybe there are things that I need to correct about myself and sure. We all have things that we need to improve upon. Um, but when we see this as a widespread issue, um, collectively yet certainly those trends begin to emerge.

Wow.

Wow.

Okay.

Amanda Hammett: Let me switch gears for just a, just a second. Um, and in the wake of racist events, I mean, it's really, it's hard to know. What is the right thing to say, what is the right thing to do? I know that I've, I've personally struggled to know what was the right thing to say or do in the aftermath of the murder of George Floyd or the murder spree that we experienced here in Atlanta that impacted the Asian community.What would be your suggestions? What, what is something does someone like Jeffery and I, we want to be allies. What would be your suggestions for us?

Soon Mee Kim: Yeah. Thanks for the question, Amanda. You're not alone. I mean, there are many times when there are situations I'm not as familiar or comfortable with as well. And so that question is a certainly A really good one. Um, I think when we are struggling to know what to say or to do, it's a cue for us to listen. It's a cue for us to learn and to lean in. So very often we have, um, a bias towards action, right. Which is definitely a very good thing. But action that's not rooted in more of an understanding can often come off as performative to others and then sometimes even reckless. So we have access to so much information out there. I remember during, um, you know, June of 2020, I just for fun would just kind of. Start kind of Googling in my little Google search box, like how to dish and then it would like auto fill the rest of them, just systemic racism. Right? So it's an example that, um, it's a very popular topic and something that we have access to a lot of information there. So, um, that's one thing that I would say. But there are so many great resources specifically in terms of the AAPI community. A few that I would recommend is there's a really fantastic book by Cathy Park Hong called Minor Feelings. And what it does, it really goes into a lot more than what I just shared earlier about the different concept than myths and it's, but it shares it in a really interesting way that is. Also some personal narrative. So that's one that I would, um, recommend. Um, if you want to learn a little bit more about what's happening from these Asian hate incidents, there is a group stop AAP. I hate, I think it's dot com might be that the word. Um, but that gives you the latest of what's going on. And sadly, so many groups like this have had to form in the wake of many Um, hate crimes, hate incidents that have been happening over a large period of time. And then another easy one is just in terms of diversifying like our, our social media feeds. Right? So next shark is a really good when I'm Lisa Ling, there are a lot of really good ones that just give you a sense of what's going on. That's not covered in perhaps the mainstream media or the local news, because sadly not enough of these incidents get. the coverage um, that it deserves. But one more thing I do want to say is that often when we are like pausing and trying to like say the right thing, I think it's so important that we not let the silence win and that we choose the progress over perfection. Um, I think that we let's take the risk if someone gives us correction, um, or, you know, I don't know, wags their finger at us for whatever reason let's consider it a gift that someone is, you know, given us some guidance that we need to address something. I'm so glad that I had people in my life that are from different communities to give me correction. Um, I know not all of us will react the same way. But I, for one, I tried to receive the good intentions, um, and the things that people say with the intentions in mind. So just to have someone to say in the wake of anything that happened, and certainly, um, many, many of the things that you shared, Amanda would be to say like, Hey, I don't know what to say. Um, but I'm here for you. I am thinking of you. I'm mourn with you. I'm going to acknowledge this, that this is happening. I'm so sorry that it is. And just even something as simple I think is that is to show your empathy and care is, is I would say that always the thing that, uh, is the easy kind of shortcut to, uh, expressing, um, expressing our thoughts and feelings.

Jeffery Tobias Halter: Wow. Those are great. Um, and thank you so much for that. And for our listeners, we'll have those links to that information posted on our website. Um, well thank you for those great comments as we wrap up, is there one thing, one immediate takeaway that you would ask senior leaders to do, and then also individual contributors to do. What would be those two quick pieces of advice?

Soon Mee Kim: Jeffery, one thing that's so hard. Um, so here's one thing that I'll say is that make a friend, um, if I can say, like make a friend, there's a few study that's out there that just shows that we don't have, um, really diverse spend friend groups. Most people look just like us. So if you're in a work setting, my hope is that there is someone out there, whether it's a peer or a mentor does come up with your circle, go have coffee, go have lunch together, go have virtual coffee depending on your work situation. And I really think that through those interpersonal connections, that that can be a catalyst for greater understanding and support from one another, um, and support in the workplace. So if I have to just say one, I'll say, make a friend.

Amanda Hammett: That's excellent. I love that. I think we should all be doing more of that. Well, we'll Soon Mee. Uh, thank you so much for joining us today to talk about Asian-Americans and Pacific Islanders month. Um, and specifically how we talk about race and racism and hate crimes at work, it can be. A difficult thing to navigate, to know what to say, what to do. Um, I certainly hope that you're going to join us again, uh, to continue this important conversation. And for those of you listening, I hope that you look into Soon Mee, and follow her on LinkedIn. You can check her out there and to learn more about voices for AAPI. Visit the website, voicesforaapi.com Thank you so much. And we will see you in the very next episode.

Disclaimer: This transcript was created using YouTube’s translator tool and that may mean that some of the words, grammar, and typos come from a misinterpretation of the video.

Win(e)d Down Wednesday Podcast with Jeffery Tobias Halter and Amanda Hammett

Soon Mee Kim: It’s not enough to be quietly anti-racist

What assumptions are you making about people with disabilities? What is ableism and how does it impact the workplace? Building an inclusive culture is critical for success in today's marketplace. Our disabled colleagues want to be included and share in organizational goals and outcomes. Catarina Rivera, MSEd, MPH, CPACC, also known as the @BlindishLatina on Instagram, talks about disability, ableism, microaggressions and other biases that keep people with disabilities out of the workplace or thwart their ability to fully participate. Join us for a candid look at diversity and inclusion–and your role in creating an inclusive culture.

Share the LOVE and TWEET about this episode.

Don't miss an episode. Subscribe to Win(e)d Down Wednesday.

Disclaimer: This transcript was created using YouTube’s translator tool and that may mean that some of the words, grammar, and typos come from a misinterpretation of the video.

The Transcript - Interview with Soon Mee Kim

Jeffery Tobias Halter: Well, good afternoon. Today we are talking with Soon Mee Kim about Asian American and Pacific Islanders month and how we can talk about race and racism at work. But before we get started today, I want to share that I am drinking a fabulous, uh, Napa Rosé. This is actually, um, uh, called black girl magic and it's by two women, the McBride sister, I didn't have a valley and they have an entire portfolio. And so we're going to put a little push out for them, for you to go and enjoy some, some black girl magic It's nice April day So, uh, anyways, that's what I'm drinking, Amanda, what are you drinking today?

Amanda Hammett: I'm super jealous. Now, I have a little espresso I needed an afternoon. Um, so if by the end of this episode, I'm bouncing off the walls. My apologies to everyone. Well, wonderful. Wonderful. I am very excited, not just about my espresso, but actually about our guests. Um, it's my honor to introduce Soon Mee Kim, Soon Mee is the chief diversity equity and inclusion officer for Omnicom Public Relations Group and the Omnicom Brand Consultant Group. Um, the worldwide leader in marketing communication.Soon Mee is a dreamer and a doer and drives purposeful action. A twenty-five year communications agency veteran. She's a proven leader and creative problem solver with a passion for workplace culture, supporting the talent life cycle, very important stuff, and confronting systemic bias. Her forte is in uncovering and articulating the reasons why people should care about complex issues. Hence why she's here. So formally and informally, her favorite roles are that a mentor, coach and student.

Jeffery Tobias Halter: Soon Mee, welcome to Win(e)d Down Wednesday. And of course I have to ask what's your beverage of choice?

Soon Mee Kim: Well, Jeffery, Amanda, thank you so much for that very warm welcome I'm so excited to be here with you. My beverage of choice is an iced Korean coffee. It's in the stainless steel mug. That happens to say, Kyle, I have no idea where it comes from. I don't know who Kyle is, but somehow it's in my cupboard and I'm a, yes, I'm an enjoying a, a tall iced coffee.

Amanda Hammett: Well, thank you to Kyle this morning. Well, okay. Let's, let's dive in because we have a lot of ground to cover. Um, this year AAPI heritage month takes place against the backdrop of a rise in anti-aging crimes. Including online harassment during the pandemic. As some people have falsely blamed Asian-Americans for the spread of the coronavirus. Soon Mee, can you provide some background on AAPI heritage month and also talk for a minute about your background and the group that you recently co founded. Voices for AAPI.

Soon Mee Kim: Thank you so much, Amanda, for the question. So there's a lot in there. So I'll start with, um, Asian American Pacific Islander heritage month. Um, so the month, um, was first started as a, uh, a week and I think it was really difficult to even have that passed by, um, the US until even recently, I didn't really grow up celebrating, um, Asian-American Pacific Islander heritage month until I would say in the very I don't know, maybe last five, 10 years, but ultimately what it speaks to is just the need and the desire to understand a little bit more about Asian American and Pacific Islander, um, history as part of American history as a time to really celebrate the culture and that beautiful tapestry. That is part of what makes up, um, specifically America and, um, Really the fact that we are so interconnected, how we are all really interwoven. So it's really a commemorative time to think about history. Uh, sadly I think history is something that we all need to learn more about in many forms, but specifically, um, when I think about Asian-American and Pacific Islander history is something that's been very much invisibilized over, um, a long, long period of time. Um, Amanda, you also spoke about. The hate, sadly, the issue of hate against, um, our communities is not something new. It's something that has been going on, um, for a very long time. But it's certainly what we realized during this pandemic that it hasn't gone away. And it's very much targeted, um, to our communities. Since the beginning of the pandemic, there have been more than 10,000. Incidents that have been documented. We know there are more, um, and if you're following online, it doesn't, it hasn't stopped. It has not abated when bit we see continuous examples of terrible hate incidents that are directed towards people in our community. Um, More likely than not the elderly, um, and more likely than not women. So it's really terrible to see how in the midst of all of that. However, um, it's been a galvanizing moment for many organizations to form to address that into visibility that silencing, and certainly the hate as well. And voices for AAPI is one of them. Um, it's one of the ways that we're really trying to make sure that the fullness of who we are in our communities is recognized and that we are achieving systemic equity across our specific industry of communications, marketing and creative services.

Jeffery Tobias Halter: Um, so as we think about this and realize that we have mostly a business audience and we certainly want to connect and bring, you know, vital points to them, what are some of these experiences, both positive and negative Uh, of Asian-Americans in the workplace. Yeah.

Soon Mee Kim: I think there are a few concepts that are so important for those that are in the business setting in particular need to know about, because if you don't know about these concepts, that it's very likely whether you are a part of the community or you're not at that, you're thinking like, oh, it's just a one-off. Right. But, um, so when we realized like trends, like these are concepts, like these really point to a larger issue and a larger trend than it's different. So one example is the Model Minority Myth. Um, so it's often like, oh, you're a smart Asian, um, didn't your people go to Harvard or aren't you taking up, you know, like certain roles let's say in stem fields. And, you know, there can be things that are positive attributes that are directed towards folks. The sad thing about that, however, is that guess what? Maybe you're not a stem person. Maybe you're someone who wants to go into a creative field and you're deemed as someone who does not have, let's say the language skills or, um, the capabilities outside of that, but also just the term itself. There was a time I would say, in this country, um, where there was so much, um, discrimination. Um, well, let's just talk about Japanese internment as an example. And so this whole idea of the model minority was created as a wedge issue against the black community. It was created as one when the US for example, was very heavily invested in, um, In efforts overseas, particularly in Asia, so needed to address, like how do we improve upon our image and the world stage? So that's where a lot of the model minority myth even comes from. Um, there's also the issue of this idea of the perpetual foreigner. So Amanda, Jeffery, I don't think of you as somebody like this, but guess what? For a lot of people, they might see a name like mine, Soon Mee Kim They might see it come across their resume, that resume across the desk. And if they don't know me.There are several biases, implicit or explicit I'm immediately, like you might think like, oh, she's not American. She's not from here. Maybe she doesn't speak English. Um, and frankly, I was born here. I've been here probably a pretty long time. I would say I speak English pretty well. There's a lot of assumptions that can be made in those ways. That is, um, again, that idea that you can be here, multiple generations, you might've come here in the 1850s, um, to help build the transcontinental railroad. Um, you're, you know, there's so many different ways that, uh, of belonging, but if you are always considered a perpetual foreigner, if you're, if the default is to ask someone like, Hey, where are you from? No, no, no, no, no. Where are you really from? That is the idea that you're really at best. You're a guest here. And guests have to follow rules and understand rules, and it's not surprising then to be then told the K um, go back to your country. If you know, you're, you're not feeling that sense of like, um, belonging, if you will, but also, so the model minority myth, they perpetual foreigner. I think a third concept that folks have to be really recognized is one called the bamboo ceiling. So it's a kind of a play on the whole, glass ceiling, if you will. And so the bamboo ceiling really just speaks to the fact that, Hey, you know what, to me, somebody like you, you're a great worker, please continually continue working on these spreadsheets for us. Um, but you know what? I don't know that you're someone that I can really trust in a management position. Maybe you don't, you know, um, display what we think about as Um, leadership skills. And so very often folks get trapped in certain roles. Um, often Asian, Asian Americans, um, including Pacific Islanders are the most under promoted folks within, um, our organization. So that notion of the bamboo ceiling is real. Um, again, if you're talking to somebody individually, they may think like, Hey, this is just happening to me. Maybe there are things that I need to correct about myself and sure. We all have things that we need to improve upon. Um, but when we see this as a widespread issue, um, collectively yet certainly those trends begin to emerge.

Wow.

Wow.

Okay.

Amanda Hammett: Let me switch gears for just a, just a second. Um, and in the wake of racist events, I mean, it's really, it's hard to know. What is the right thing to say, what is the right thing to do? I know that I've, I've personally struggled to know what was the right thing to say or do in the aftermath of the murder of George Floyd or the murder spree that we experienced here in Atlanta that impacted the Asian community.What would be your suggestions? What, what is something does someone like Jeffery and I, we want to be allies. What would be your suggestions for us?

Soon Mee Kim: Yeah. Thanks for the question, Amanda. You're not alone. I mean, there are many times when there are situations I'm not as familiar or comfortable with as well. And so that question is a certainly A really good one. Um, I think when we are struggling to know what to say or to do, it's a cue for us to listen. It's a cue for us to learn and to lean in. So very often we have, um, a bias towards action, right. Which is definitely a very good thing. But action that's not rooted in more of an understanding can often come off as performative to others and then sometimes even reckless. So we have access to so much information out there. I remember during, um, you know, June of 2020, I just for fun would just kind of. Start kind of Googling in my little Google search box, like how to dish and then it would like auto fill the rest of them, just systemic racism. Right? So it's an example that, um, it's a very popular topic and something that we have access to a lot of information there. So, um, that's one thing that I would say. But there are so many great resources specifically in terms of the AAPI community. A few that I would recommend is there's a really fantastic book by Cathy Park Hong called Minor Feelings. And what it does, it really goes into a lot more than what I just shared earlier about the different concept than myths and it's, but it shares it in a really interesting way that is. Also some personal narrative. So that's one that I would, um, recommend. Um, if you want to learn a little bit more about what's happening from these Asian hate incidents, there is a group stop AAP. I hate, I think it's dot com might be that the word. Um, but that gives you the latest of what's going on. And sadly, so many groups like this have had to form in the wake of many Um, hate crimes, hate incidents that have been happening over a large period of time. And then another easy one is just in terms of diversifying like our, our social media feeds. Right? So next shark is a really good when I'm Lisa Ling, there are a lot of really good ones that just give you a sense of what's going on. That's not covered in perhaps the mainstream media or the local news, because sadly not enough of these incidents get. the coverage um, that it deserves. But one more thing I do want to say is that often when we are like pausing and trying to like say the right thing, I think it's so important that we not let the silence win and that we choose the progress over perfection. Um, I think that we let's take the risk if someone gives us correction, um, or, you know, I don't know, wags their finger at us for whatever reason let's consider it a gift that someone is, you know, given us some guidance that we need to address something. I'm so glad that I had people in my life that are from different communities to give me correction. Um, I know not all of us will react the same way. But I, for one, I tried to receive the good intentions, um, and the things that people say with the intentions in mind. So just to have someone to say in the wake of anything that happened, and certainly, um, many, many of the things that you shared, Amanda would be to say like, Hey, I don't know what to say. Um, but I'm here for you. I am thinking of you. I'm mourn with you. I'm going to acknowledge this, that this is happening. I'm so sorry that it is. And just even something as simple I think is that is to show your empathy and care is, is I would say that always the thing that, uh, is the easy kind of shortcut to, uh, expressing, um, expressing our thoughts and feelings.

Jeffery Tobias Halter: Wow. Those are great. Um, and thank you so much for that. And for our listeners, we'll have those links to that information posted on our website. Um, well thank you for those great comments as we wrap up, is there one thing, one immediate takeaway that you would ask senior leaders to do, and then also individual contributors to do. What would be those two quick pieces of advice?

Soon Mee Kim: Jeffery, one thing that's so hard. Um, so here's one thing that I'll say is that make a friend, um, if I can say, like make a friend, there's a few study that's out there that just shows that we don't have, um, really diverse spend friend groups. Most people look just like us. So if you're in a work setting, my hope is that there is someone out there, whether it's a peer or a mentor does come up with your circle, go have coffee, go have lunch together, go have virtual coffee depending on your work situation. And I really think that through those interpersonal connections, that that can be a catalyst for greater understanding and support from one another, um, and support in the workplace. So if I have to just say one, I'll say, make a friend.

Amanda Hammett: That's excellent. I love that. I think we should all be doing more of that. Well, we'll Soon Mee. Uh, thank you so much for joining us today to talk about Asian-Americans and Pacific Islanders month. Um, and specifically how we talk about race and racism and hate crimes at work, it can be. A difficult thing to navigate, to know what to say, what to do. Um, I certainly hope that you're going to join us again, uh, to continue this important conversation. And for those of you listening, I hope that you look into Soon Mee, and follow her on LinkedIn. You can check her out there and to learn more about voices for AAPI. Visit the website, voicesforaapi.com Thank you so much. And we will see you in the very next episode.

Disclaimer: This transcript was created using YouTube’s translator tool and that may mean that some of the words, grammar, and typos come from a misinterpretation of the video.

Win(e)d Down Wednesday Podcast with Jeffery Tobias Halter and Amanda Hammett

Catarina Rivera: “Do you always know when people are being left out?”

What assumptions are you making about people with disabilities? What is ableism and how does it impact the workplace? Building an inclusive culture is critical for success in today's marketplace. Our disabled colleagues want to be included and share in organizational goals and outcomes. Catarina Rivera, MSEd, MPH, CPACC, also known as the @BlindishLatina on Instagram, talks about disability, ableism, microaggressions and other biases that keep people with disabilities out of the workplace or thwart their ability to fully participate. Join us for a candid look at diversity and inclusion–and your role in creating an inclusive culture.

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Disclaimer: This transcript was created using YouTube’s translator tool and that may mean that some of the words, grammar, and typos come from a misinterpretation of the video.

The Transcript - Interview with Catarina Rivera

Jeffery Tobias Halter: Well, good afternoon. Today we're talking with Catarina Rivera about disability awareness and the tips to create more inclusive workplaces. I'm Jeffery Tobias Halter, and today I'm enjoying a nice Italian Pinot Grigio. Amanda, what's your beverage of choice.

Amanda Hammett: I am with my old faithful, my raspberry hibiscus kombucha being the good millennial representatives that I am. So, um, now that we have that, what we're drinking today out of the way, uh, I'd love to introduce everyone to Catarina Rivera, uh, Catarina, actually, if you know anything about my background, um, I am one of the hosts of a 30 Day Inclusion Challenge in October and Catarina was my guest Uh, for one of those days, uh, during the generation's week, uh, but Catarina is a disability, a public speaker and DEI consultant who works with companies to improve disability awareness, inclusion, and accessibility. She's been featured in Nasdaq authority magazine and was one of the top 21 DEI influencers of 2021. So her past clients have included people like Harper Collins, uh, LinkedIn, Whole 30, Grant Thornton, and BCG Digital Ventures. She's the founder of Blindish Latina, a platform smashing disability stigmas throughout, uh, through storytelling, and Catarina is hard of hearing and blind So she has a BA from Duke University, uh, as well as an MS ED from Bank Street College of Education and an MPH from Hunter College. Catarina is also a certified professional in accessibility core competencies.

Jeffery Tobias Halter: Catarina, welcome to Win(e)d Down Wednesday. We're very excited to have you here. So what's your Win(e)d Down beverage of choice today.

Catarina Rivera: Thank you so much for having me. I am showing up with a green tea. I love my tea. That's what I have.

Amanda Hammett: All right. Well, um, I'm, I'm incredibly grateful Catarina to have you on the show today. Um, most people actually don't know that I actually grew up and had a front row seat to seeing how those with disabilities were treated in the workplace and how they were actually actively excluded. And that was an experience that I had that really opened my eyes at a, at a very young age and put me on the path to creating inclusive workplaces. So to say that this topic that we're discovering today, um, is close to my heart is an understatement. So I would love to start this conversation by having you share your story, as well as giving our audience an introduction to disability, awareness and inclusion in the workplace.

Catarina Rivera: Amanda, I did not know that your personal connection to this topic, and I hope we can talk more about that another time. I'm glad that you are going to be always a champion for disability. Cause we need that. As far as my story, I'm Cuban and Puerto Rican, I was born in the United States and being Latina is a big deal for me. Growing up in a culture that was not the dominant culture, but a rich culture, super rich learning Spanish as my first language, all of these things taught me the power and the value of diversity. I just knew it based on my family experience. When I was young, my parents found out that I was hard of hearing. I was fitted with hearing aids, put into speech therapy and exposed to the oral world only. It was conventional wisdom at the time to not expose hard hearing children to deaf culture or to American sign language. So that's something I'm connecting with now as an adult, but it was really the way things were done at the time. Unfortunately, I went through my schooling with my hard of hearing my hearing aids and adjusting very well. And then when I was 17, everything changed again. As I found out that I was going to be losing my vision overtime. This was a big surprise for me, for my family and for my brother as well, because he has the same condition and it started my journey with disability, where I went through different stages of feeling about this. In the beginning I was in denial. I was upset. It felt like a tragedy. I didn't want to talk about it with anyone. I tried to hide any challenges that I was experiencing with navigating word. As I grew older and had more exposure to the disability community. So blind people that were in the thirties, forties, and fifties, I became more comfortable with my disability, more accepting, and I received some services that were really helpful as far as knowing about tools that could be supportive. And then after that, the next shift for me was to self-advocacy. As I started using a white cane and became very comfortable. Over time with being visibly disabled, because people do look at you differently. They do treat you differently. And so I had to show up with a lot more confidence about who I was and what my needs were, and that actually made my life a lot better when I reached that point. I wanted to do more with my voice. It wasn't enough for me that my life was better. That is where I started my interest in public advocacy and becoming a public voice for the disability and also by showing up as Blindish Latina, I am helping other people to see that we exist, that there are many diverse members of the disability community. So that's something that's really important to me. When we look at the workplace, the workplace is a reflection of our society, and we still have a long way to go with disability inclusion. Although 90% of companies claim to prioritize diversity, only 4% consider disability and these initiative. According to a report from the return on disability group. And this is from the Harvard Business Review. From an article by Caroline Casey. So that's really shocking maybe to cure, but I think for people that are in the workplace, it will resonate for many employees who don't see mentioned that disability, who haven't seen any awareness trainings on disability in their workplace and are experiencing microaggression. on a regular basis. When people think about disability in the workplace, many of them think about the ADA and reasonable accommodations, but accommodations are the minimum legal standard, but everyone must comply. They do not support disabled employees in every context or in every situation that they encounter at work. They only help people with certain functions of their role. And they also only support employees who request them. It's very important to, for employers to recognize and me to go beyond the ADA, to prioritize disability inclusion throughout their organizational culture and throughout their entire employee experience.

Jeffery Tobias Halter: So fascinating, um, information and, and, and your story is just incredible based on your last statements. Um, I know our listeners would love to learn more. Um, can you talk more about ableism and the role that it plays in the workplace?

Catarina Rivera: Ableism is so important to talk about if you haven't heard of the term before, don't worry, because there are actually a lot of people out there who are not familiar with the term. So first I'm going to define it. Ableism is the idea that non-disabled people are more worthy or valuable than disabled people. It leads to prejudice, bias and discrimination it's ever present in our society and in our workplace. We see the real consequences that ableism, when disabled people are trying to get hired for jobs and interviewers are making assumptions about them based on their disability. They're making assumptions on what kind of employee they will be and what their capabilities are. And people are not being offered the job. Some people struggle to find employment. When we think about ableism and its impact, this idea that non-disabled people are somehow better or more worthy is a false idea is promoted though, within society. And it's reinforced throughout the media. We don't see a lot of characters in entertainment that are whole club disabled people, where the writing is actually from disabled writers. And is authentic. There's a real lack of representation. So plain and simple Ableism keeps disabled people out of the workforce and leads to discrimination against the disabled community. I was always nervous about job interviews and I never disclosed my disability until after I was hired. This is very common because of the discrimination and the hiring process. Many disabled people have that story. If they are able to hide their disability, that's oftentimes what we do. Even when disabled employees are in the workforce, they tend to face daily challenges related to ableism, like microaggression and inaccessible company cultures. There's a real privilege and not being able to see the barriers that exist for disabled people, because you have an experience and challenges yourself. For example, I have 5% of my vision remaining preparing for a handshake is stressful for me. And I have to consciously think about it. I have to stand a little further away from the person. I have to extend my hand and, and look down to make sure that I'm meeting their hand and I'm spending mental energy on that process. So if they're talking to me, none of that is getting processed. All I'm trying to do is connect with the handshake, because if I miss that handshake, what kind of assumptions are going to be made about me? People are gonna think I'm ignoring their handshake. It does not even enter into most people's minds that I might not see it, that I might be a nice person who has disability. And you know, that is, is challenging because I don't have the, I don't have a sign on my work outfit that says, this is everything you need to know about me so that you don't misinterpret me. And nobody has said, so it's something I spend mental energy on to avoid those miscommunications or negative assumptions being made about me being labeled rude or unfriendly rather than explaining my disability to every single person. and If you think handshakes are tough, consider high fives. I always missed high fives all the time. So when I share about my vision disability and how not having peripheral vision, make everyday moments like handshakes and colleagues even handing me things stressful and challenging and people respond. Wow. I never thought about that. It really demonstrates that none of us know what's going on with anyone else and that our world can look very different. So within an accessible work environment, there's a pressure on disabled employees to constantly adapt and to create strategies, to manage those inaccessible situation. And that creates unacceptable mental health class for the employees. It takes a toll and it creates more work for us. It's critical to address ableism in the workplace and create an environment that is free of microaggressions, prioritizes inclusive language, and is accessible for all employees.

Amanda Hammett: So Catarina. Can I ask you how can each of us be more aware and what are your tips for us to avoid microaggressions and to use more inclusive language?

Catarina Rivera: I want to share a few common microaggressions. There are many, but I think these are good starting point. Oftentimes there a situation arises where you might want to offer help to a disabled person. It's very important to ask us if we need help. And if we say no, respect the no, you might not understand my vision, but I do. So if I'm telling you that I know where I'm going and I don't need your assistance, then I want that respect for my agency. My determination, if the disabled person said, yes. Then I recommend you ask them how you can best help them, let them guide you because oftentimes you have not, you don't have experience. They're the experts and that moment, and you're going to come up with something that's probably not exactly the best and most helpful way for them. So ask them how to best help them above all, do not touch disabled people or their mobility aids, wheelchairs, canes, white canes, without their permission. consider all of that, an extension of their body. And we don't go around touching people's bodies without their permission. Another common microaggression is asking invasive questions of disabled people. Oftentimes, this comes from non disabled people centering themselves and their curiosity feeling entitled to other people's stories, just because you want to know, not because it benefits the other person to tell you their story or that you've built trust with them. I'm speaking really about context where you don't have a deep relationship with someone while you're perhaps out in public, or you just met them. Many people, disabled people face invasive questions and conversations such as, Well, what happened to you. Why don't you in a wheelchair, disabled people when we're out living our lives, you know, we do not exist to educate you. We might choose to, but it's not our, your prerogative to know our story or to invade our space and our existence when we are living on lives. Another suggestion that I have for avoiding microaggressions is to re examine your automatic use of the words Like inspiring hero and break for disabled people. A lot of times you're not calling a disabled person inspiring, brave or hero for something that you would call a non disabled person those words for. Let's focus on people's accomplishments. Let's focus on why we're using language like that, because that really perpetuates a ultimately harmful narrative about disabilities. That it's not surprising for us to have good lives or to get out of bed and go to work. You know, we continue on with life and we there, I love sharing disability joy on blindish Latina. I love sharing moments where I'm dancing. where I'm, I'm having a great time back here and my life is good and that's important for me to share because I think it really does come up against a stigma that people have about disabilities. Like, oh, your life is over. And that's not true. When we comes to inclusive language. We also need to be mindful of ableism language and work to consciously consciously change terms like OCD. I'm so OCD and staying crazy. All of these are overused and are not inclusive when it comes to mental health. Wheelchair bound is not inclusive. It when, um, wheelchair users, which is the term that I recommend wheelchair users. They talk about their wheelchair to provide some freedom. They're not bound to their wheelchair. They're not in a wheelchair all the time also. So it's not accurate. And we also have common phrases like deaf and dumb or tone deaf, and think about what that association sounds like when you're using it. And you have a deaf or hard hearing person listening. And the last thing that I'll say, because I have so many is when you're talking about the disability community, use the word disability, say the word there's nothing wrong with the word disability. Avoid euphemisms, like handy capable are differently abled adopt person first for identity first language. Person first is person with a disability. Identity first is disabled person Those are the ones that are respectful for the community.

Jeffery Tobias Halter: Wow. This has been such an amazing session. We never seem to have enough time. Um, I've been doing DEI work now for over 20 years and this was just a thesaurus on things we don't know, um, things companies can do. And, uh, I want to thank you for coming on to talk about disability awareness. My hope is you're going to be joining us again in the future to share additional tips. So Catarina, thank you for joining us today. You'll find out more information on Catarina and her work on her website CatarinaRivera.com And we'll also have this downloaded and you can, uh, look on it on our website where you can download her free book on accessibility or follow her on Instagram @blindishlatina And there are amazing videos that she puts front and center, and it just helps everyone to understand and learn more. And so thank you so much for joining us today.

Catarina Rivera: Thank you again for having me.

Disclaimer: This transcript was created using YouTube’s translator tool and that may mean that some of the words, grammar, and typos come from a misinterpretation of the video.

Win(e)d Down Wednesday Podcast with Jeffery Tobias Halter and Amanda Hammett

Too young or too old? Rocking it at any age with Bonnie Marcus

More than 80 percent of women worldwide have experienced gendered ageism in the workplace. Career coach, author and host of the podcast, Badass Women at Any Age, Bonnie Marcus shares findings from her research on gendered ageism --the intersectionality of gender bias and ageism. Given society’s hyper-focus on youth and beauty, older women can face being viewed not only as less attractive but also less competent and valuable than other women, while younger women are viewed as “too green” and incapable of strong leadership. How can organizational leaders understand and address the gendered ageism bias in order to recruit and retain the best talent? Don’t miss this timely discussion.

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Disclaimer: This transcript was created using YouTube’s translator tool and that may mean that some of the words, grammar, and typos come from a misinterpretation of the video.

The Transcript - Interview with Bonnie Marcus

Amanda Hammett: Good afternoon today we are talking to Bonnie Marcus about gendered ageism, and I am incredibly excited about today, but before we get into that, um, my name is Amanda Hammett and I am drinking my normal favorite raspberry hibiscus kombucha. Jeffery, what are you drinking today?

Jeffery Tobias Halter: Yeah, I've got a very nice Italian Pinot Grigio. And, uh, just before our show started, we were talking. About Italy with Bonnie, she was going to be going there. We're very jealous, but we have to focus on what we're, what we're going to be talking about today. So it's my absolute pleasure to introduce Bonnie Marcus, Bonnie is an executive coach author international speaker with a passion for helping professional women gain the visibility and credibility they need to have a fulfilling career. Bonnie's the author of two books, "The Politics of Promotion" How High-Achieving Women Get Ahead and Stay Ahead. And the recently published "Not Done Yet!". How women over 50 regain their confidence and claim workplace power. She's also the host of a podcast. About a bad-ass women at any age, and I'm going to, you know, shamelessly promote that. I was the first bad-ass man that Bonnie asked to, uh, to come on her show. So, uh, so I was so thankful for that.

Amanda Hammett: Well, wonderful. Well, Bonnie, welcome to Win(e)d Down Wednesday. What is your beverage of choice today?

Bonnie Marcus: Well, of course I'm on California time, so I, it would be hard for me to justify the Pinot Grigio, although Jeffery I'm still with you, but I have my kombucha shot and my favorite is gingerade.

Amanda Hammett: Oh yeah. That's a good one

Bonnie Marcus: No, like I'm addicted to this, so

Jeffery Tobias Halter: That's awesome.

Bonnie Marcus: A worst thing to be addicted to, right?

Jeffery Tobias Halter: Yeah. There you go. There you go. And, uh, and hopefully, you know, we, uh, you can enjoy, uh, another beverage, when it gets to be five o'clock your time. Um, so we're going to get started, Bonnie the question is always where to start. And so my first question is around what prompted you to write the book "Not Done Yet!" How women over 50 regain their confidence and claim workplace power.

Bonnie Marcus: You know, I was in New York for a networking coffee, with a female colleague who started to tell me her story, you know, we're kind of catching up and I'm like, how are things going at work or whatever. And she had been with a large global bank for 22 years. And she starts to tell me they just terminated her. She had worked her way up to be managing director. Right. So she had a stellar performance record, but she started to notice some of her young female colleagues were calling her a dinosaur, her boss wasn't including her in, in meetings anymore. And by the way, they were making fun of her because she wore pantyhose. She was over the hill. Um, she was extinct, so she did get, uh, terminated and they called it downsizing, but she knew better that it was gendered age-ism and of course this and another coaching client I had, who worked in Silicon Valley in, in, on a legal team there um, had similar experiences she wasn't let go, but she was marginalized. And I said, there's, there's gotta be more to this. I have to start doing some more interview. And of course I did find that the more I spoke with women, women, you know, even 40 and over, they were experiencing the intersection of gender bias and ageism.

Amanda Hammett: When I was reading the research that we had pulled together for this episode, I was like, yes, I see this. I know this personally, but also I see this as well. So in researching your book, you found that gendered ageism affects women at all stages of their careers, but most notably under the age of 35 and over 50. Which I could not agree more, but especially in this world, this economy, this workplace that we're dealing with now. So could you tell us a little bit more about that research? What did you find?

Bonnie Marcus: So I did find that 77% of women under 35 experienced gendered ageism. And what did that look like? Their opinions weren't valued. They weren't invited to key meetings. They didn't have credibility. They weren't considered to be, you know, a valuable contributor. They didn't have enough experience and they were viewed as being too young. And at the other end of the spectrum now, women who hit 59 to over 60 had similar experiences, 88% of them experienced gender ageism. But the interesting thing is that. It improves slightly for women between the ages of 35 and 40. It's like, Amanda that's one nanosecond where women looking to be the right age. But of course, chances are we're having children at that age. And so we're also then facing the motherhood penalty. Um, and that affects, um, our income. If our company doesn't have flexibility, we may be forced to, to opt out, at center, but so 35 to 40 is that sweet spot. And then every year incrementally, every year after 40, till you hit 55 or so it increases it's just mind boggling to, you know, as.

Jeffery Tobias Halter: It is just mind boggling, to you know. It's, It's You know, Amanda and I've done so many shows about the war for talent and, you know, the, the gap between what companies need and the available people that are out there. And yet, you know, this is still, so I think so common in the workplace and, and we could easily be talking about older white men as well. You know, I have a number of conversations with my colleagues who are you know, men in their sixties who are basically saying, Hey, you're done, you know, here's your package. Um, but I know there are so many more nuanced layers that, that women face that are, that are just horrific. Um, I'm curious in your research, what have you found, uh, for best practices? What are fortune 500 companies doing to retain women over 50? What are training programs or, or policies? What have you seen that's working to keep them in the workforce.

Bonnie Marcus: I haven't seen a lot. I haven't seen, I haven't seen a lot of companies addressing the intersection of gender bias and ageism, it's really not on their radar. Now, a lot of companies and you know, this Jeffery are trying to, um, improve. Uh, the workplace for women, they're trying to attract and retain women, and very many of them have some, they've made some public, goals and, and announcements about what they're trying to, to achieve to women through the pipeline and advance them to leadership positions. But a lot, but companies aren't really addressing the ageism issue. And, you know, part of my work and, you know, banging the drum here is that we need to build more awareness for companies about why this is important. It's not just a nice to have, um, similar to the, what we said about gender bias. It's not just a good thing to do to embrace women. It actually helps your business.

Jeffery Tobias Halter: If you were talking to CEOs, what, what are one or two things you would tell them to do.

Bonnie Marcus: The first thing I would tell them to do it's it may be even like a surprising, um, request. Don't make assumptions about the women in your workplace and what they are experiencing. So very often companies will say, okay, we need to, uh, create some solutions or make a new initiative around this issue. But they're assuming. What that experience is like for their employees. So I think, you know, if I was talking to anyone in the C-suite or anybody who's head of diversity and inclusion, it's create some kind of a survey, uh, you know, for your female employees and find out exactly what they are experiencing on this topic, because for you to create solutions, that, that, um, are based on assumptions may miss the mark. So similar to the survey that I designed for my research designed something accustomed survey, um, that will help you to really pinpoint what some of the issues are, how they are being addressed, or maybe they're not being addressed by HR and your managers, and then put some programs in place.

Amanda Hammett: Wise, wise words Bonnie Well, first of all, thank you for being with us. Uh, this topic, I think, is something that is not getting the airtime. It deserves. Um, ageism, as you've mentioned, happens across the board, especially for women. Um, I personally have suffered from it. Uh, had someone say that I was a kid. When I was 38 years old, like why, why would we believe you? You're just a kid. So this does happen. So for those leaders out there that are watching, you know, take what Bonnie has to say, take her research to heart and for the rest of you, thank you so much for joining us. And we will see you in the very next episode.

Disclaimer: This transcript was created using YouTube’s translator tool and that may mean that some of the words, grammar, and typos come from a misinterpretation of the video.